Reading this I remember someone posting about the peak of a coin dropped to the floor. Suppose it was a tile or wooden floor and he peak was something like 130dB.
That is 10.000W into a 90dB speaker..
Maybe those horn guys are on the right track after all. 🙂
/Peter
That is 10.000W into a 90dB speaker..
Maybe those horn guys are on the right track after all. 🙂
/Peter
Thats actually interesting, really
BTW, it should be a scientific fact that persons who are very good musicians have a brain that functions differently from more normal persons
BTW, it should be a scientific fact that persons who are very good musicians have a brain that functions differently from more normal persons
the term of "Dynamic Headroom" is a measure of how much transient power an amp has. a 3db dynamic headroom would mean that a 100W amplifier is capable of reproducing 200W transients.
Andre Visser said:
If there there were really something there to listen for then a simple double blind test would prove it. Instead, there's an enormous opposition to any type of credible test. It all points towards astrology at a higher price point.
Andre Visser said:
What it really comes down to is there's a certain element of dick waving with electronics in general. It's about having little glowing tubes and gleefully telling people how good your ears are.
Interesting. I've got all kinds of little glowing tubes, yet I can't ever remember saying that my hearing is better than everyone else's.
Andre Visser said:
There is the so-called 'pyramid effect'. Consider, for example, two college boys who are thinking of cheating at an exam. They both are almost of the same opinion, they have the same fear of being discovered, and they both know that itsomething you shouldn't do. They are together at the top of a pyramid. Yet, one by a small margin decides not to do it, and the other by a small margin does decide to do it. Then they start to slide down differentr sides of the pyramid.
As time goes on, because each has a need to rationalize his own decision, it is very likely that (also depends on whether they pass or not) the one who didn't cheat will regard the other as totally lacking any ethics and morality, while the other, who did cheat, will consider the other a hopeless sissy who is outside of reality, even ifthey really started out at the same point!
So here you have two persons who have almost the same opinion initially, but because of a different decision and the requirements of aligning them with their views, grow away from each other so far that it is likely they're not able anymore to have a beer together. These are some of the dynamics you can recognise in many areas of life, including this forum.
Remember the Bosnia crisis? How can people who lived next to each other all of a sudden, so it seems, become enemies to the point that they start shooting each other? Different, seemingly not that important decisions, and the subsequent need to justify them to yourself.
When you take the seemingly not so strong decision that your neighbour should really move away because he is another race, you have a crisis in your mind. It's called congitive dissonant. He needs to move away, but he also was a good neighbour for years. You only can rationalize it if you picture him as bad, evil, hostile, until you get to the point that you shoot at him. This is also part of our wiring.
Jan Didden
"The boys in the jungle had me on the run!" (free association from the comments said here recently)😉
10.000W into 90db/W speakers results in 100db/m not 130db/m.Pan said:
Are you confusing us again by swapping decimal place with thousands separator symbols.
Far better to write 10kW if that is what you really meant.
@ janneman,
yes, literature about our perception of reality is really faszinating and modern neurobiology could lead to very new ideas including something called free will of human beings.
And of course you´re right that the object of blind testing is to remove clues.
But otoh it opens a full badge of other affectation mechanisms which were quite often not taken into account, especially if double blind testing is not the experimentators daily work.
For example it´s not granted (based on my experience even quite unlikely) that a listener in a blind test is still in the same mental state as he is during normal listening.
As we can´t seperate our hearing ability from perception in general we are as much affected by unusual circumstances as we are by influences from clues.
So, if you want to do really serious blind tests, your _have_ _to_ _train_ your listeners to raise the probability to get useful results.
And as there is such a great number of thinkable influences you _have_ to include controls as a safety line. (What of course leads to crossed fingers hoping that you´ll not get diverging results from test and controls 🙂 )
Unfortunately the inclusion of controls is quite rare.
Wishes
P.S. JJ did say once something similar to "The most important factor in testing is training of listeners. You should train them over an extended period under the specific test situation. Training is very important, and oh , did i mention that training is important?"
yes, literature about our perception of reality is really faszinating and modern neurobiology could lead to very new ideas including something called free will of human beings.
And of course you´re right that the object of blind testing is to remove clues.
But otoh it opens a full badge of other affectation mechanisms which were quite often not taken into account, especially if double blind testing is not the experimentators daily work.
For example it´s not granted (based on my experience even quite unlikely) that a listener in a blind test is still in the same mental state as he is during normal listening.
As we can´t seperate our hearing ability from perception in general we are as much affected by unusual circumstances as we are by influences from clues.
So, if you want to do really serious blind tests, your _have_ _to_ _train_ your listeners to raise the probability to get useful results.
And as there is such a great number of thinkable influences you _have_ to include controls as a safety line. (What of course leads to crossed fingers hoping that you´ll not get diverging results from test and controls 🙂 )
Unfortunately the inclusion of controls is quite rare.
Wishes
P.S. JJ did say once something similar to "The most important factor in testing is training of listeners. You should train them over an extended period under the specific test situation. Training is very important, and oh , did i mention that training is important?"
I pointed out something like that out in 1979 in a rebuttal to Dr. Lipshitz. I was ignored by him then, as i am now, almost 30 years later. Much water has flowed under the bridge, yet for many of you, it is as if it the first time you have ever addressed this issue.
Jakob2 said:
Yes, important points those. I have no immediate answers, but isn't the 'stress' at non-blind, sighted tests similar? You still have peer pressure (assuming you do this in a group) of not making a fool of yourself and making the wrong decisions. I'don't see that that is radically different between sighted and dbt testing. And if the test is done individually, anonimously, it is completely removed.
Then there is the stress of being forced to make a decision one way or another. Again, isn't that the same when doing sighted or dbt's? At any rate, does that deminish the ability to hear with sensitivity and accuracy? I don't know, but I DO know that whenever people are stressed they invariably perform BETTER. Whether it is speed skating, an intelligence test, or completing an amp before a deadline (hi Mark 😉 ). Of course you can stress people until they break down but a dbt hardly is that.
Jan Didden
I can say fore a fact that when I am stressed or moody nothing sounds any good...in a good moode music sounds so much better 
Why anyone wants those color TV sets is beyond me when B&W is good enough!
Why anyone wants those Trinitron color TV sets is beyond me when color TV is good enough!
Why anyone wants those projection TV sets is beyond me when Trinitron color TV is good enough!
Why anyone wants those LCD projection TV sets is beyond me when CRT projection TV is good enough!
Why anyone wants those HDTV big screen TVs is beyond me when NTSC is good enough!
Seems black & white to me...
_-_-bear
Why anyone wants those Trinitron color TV sets is beyond me when color TV is good enough!
Why anyone wants those projection TV sets is beyond me when Trinitron color TV is good enough!
Why anyone wants those LCD projection TV sets is beyond me when CRT projection TV is good enough!
Why anyone wants those HDTV big screen TVs is beyond me when NTSC is good enough!
Seems black & white to me...
_-_-bear
tinitus said:
OK, I have those moments too. Bad day, **** at work, discussions with the missus, or just tired.
But then the logical thing to do is not to do any critical listening for rating.
The question however is, does dbt cause stress that would not be there with sighted tests? Personally, I feel a certain anxiety whenever I do critical listening, whatever the mode. But I would say (and there is a lot of literature about that) a certain amount of anxiety is *necessary* to perform at your best.
Jan Didden
AndrewT said:
Sure.. if I confuse you I will type kW next time..(even though you and everybody else knew exactly what I meant) but only if you learn how to type a tenth of a Bel correct (dB, not db) and tell me what dB/m stands for as I have never seen that one before.
😉
Did I really confuse you earlier?
/Peter
bear said:Why anyone wants those color TV sets is beyond me when B&W is good enough!
Why anyone wants those Trinitron color TV sets is beyond me when color TV is good enough!
Why anyone wants those projection TV sets is beyond me when Trinitron color TV is good enough!
Why anyone wants those LCD projection TV sets is beyond me when CRT projection TV is good enough!
Why anyone wants those HDTV big screen TVs is beyond me when NTSC is good enough!
Seems black & white to me...
_-_-bear
The thing is nobody mods their 4-head VHS and claims it's better than Bluray. In video the equipment determines the objective qualities of the viewing experience, and the content creators determine the subjective qualities.
It should be the same in audio, but in audio there's all these supposed Picassos with a soldering iron claiming their gear is the best. They're like a movie director claiming her/his work is the best, and imply that anybody who thinks otherwise is somehow inadequate.
Following the normal advancement of technology... is... well... normal. Getting a case of 3inch-itis and upgrading your TV every few years is a sure sign of a midlife crisis though.
Janneman,
Are you kidding? You try to teach us how humans think and function and this is what you believe??
Not necessarily but for some persons in some situations, absolutely. And that's why it's so important (as mentioned by other allready) that the test is set up with this in mind. Some know how to do this and some don't.
Why are you having those feelings..don't you enjoy audio and music?
For the last part..again your knowledge about the human mind does seem to be biased by your own experience with yourself.
I always perform the best when I feel relaxed and on top of things.. 😉 Wish that would be more often though! 🙂
/Peter
Are you kidding? You try to teach us how humans think and function and this is what you believe??
Not necessarily but for some persons in some situations, absolutely. And that's why it's so important (as mentioned by other allready) that the test is set up with this in mind. Some know how to do this and some don't.
Why are you having those feelings..don't you enjoy audio and music?
For the last part..again your knowledge about the human mind does seem to be biased by your own experience with yourself.
I always perform the best when I feel relaxed and on top of things.. 😉 Wish that would be more often though! 🙂
/Peter
Pan said:
No, no and yes 😉 .
Pan said:
Absolutely, but that wasn't the point. We were talking about trying to find out if there is an audible difference between two amps and similar issues.
Pan said:
Possibly, yes. That's why it would be nice if someone would have some counterarguments to all that factual evidence and resaerch.
Pan said:
How do you know, unless someone independently rates your performance compared to when you are stressed?
Unless you mean "if I'm relaxed and on top of things I have the feeling I can do *anything* and do it well"? Not trying to put words in your mouth, just fishing.
Jan Didden
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