Bear, SY apparently doesn't watch TV and he appears to lack the imagination to understand what you are getting at. Since he will not talk to me personally about this, either he is just 'stirring it up' or he really doesn't know what we are talking about, and finds our approach to audio, inappropriate, in some way. 😉
janneman said:
Ok, you got a point there.. it may be like you propose in some situations but I know for a fact that in many situations it's like I described.
Well if I get what you mean.. that is kind of what I meant. Now how confusing was that line.. 🙂
Thing is sometimes when I'm under pressure.. it may be time pressure or that I feel a pressure from people around me I can hardly count to ten or calculate 2+2. 😀
OTOH when I feel relaxed and comfortable I know pretty well what I can do and that I can do it well.. sort of.
Especially when I'm into art and intellectual tasks I need to be calm and clear... when I get up in the ring I can use a little doze of adrenalin though... not to much as that makes you stiff and drains your energy to quick.
/Peter
Pan said:
OK, I think I get all that... But the question remains, if pressure acts when doing dbt, doesn't it also when doing sighted testing? After all, the pressure is there because there is something at stake, there is peer pressure, and you don't want to make a fool of yourself. So this reasoning makes me doubt whether that 'pressure' argument against dbt holds any water.
Jan Didden
I think it depends on who you are. I can be stressed about things but when it comes to listening I have no prestige what so ever. I don't care if it's blind or open... I hear what I hear and do not feel I have to proove anything to a anyone. But.. I can still see myself loosing focus due to stress from to many people or other things that may affect me no matter if it's question of a listening session or whatever.
If I have not eaten for some time and my bloodsugar drops I will probably also "perform" much worse than if I have eaten and have stable bloodsugar.
That said I am sure there are people that feel the pressure to "make the right choice" but that obviously comes from poor self esteem I'd say.
/Peter
If I have not eaten for some time and my bloodsugar drops I will probably also "perform" much worse than if I have eaten and have stable bloodsugar.
That said I am sure there are people that feel the pressure to "make the right choice" but that obviously comes from poor self esteem I'd say.
/Peter
Pan said:
Well, you seem the ideal participant to a dbt then, to finally establish if two amp do or don't sound the same, judged by the sound ONLY 😉
Pan said:
I think that's a bit harsh. I don't think anybody can be *totally* free of it. Anxiety is a powerfull state that can let you perform better than without it, so if you are totally free of it is more like a defect. It's evolution's answer to trying to give you the edge over your competitor.
Jan Didden
janneman said:
Jan, I think what is important is to be in a "familiar" place where you can relax and keep your undivided attention on the music. I believe the mind can only focus on one thing at a time (mine anyway) therefore it is important to eliminate distractions.
Also stereo hi-fi have only one "sweet spot" so I can't see how more than one can actively participate in a serious test.
André
PS. I don't really see anxiety and concentration working together.
Jan,
Possibly a defect.. I'm sure I have several.. 🙂 however why look at an interesting listening test as a competition?
I don't and therefore I can be relaxed about it.
It's been done many times allready. I have only participated in BT on CD players and microphone preamps though.
Again, the "Swedish audio society" (LTS) has done many blind tests on amps and other stuff. Only a small number (three I think) of many amps that have been tested have prooven transparent in the test set up. That should be read that most amps on the market color the signal audibly.
If I remember correct only one have prooven to be fully transparent on all levels and that is one of the top amps from Bryston. NAD 208 and one of the Halcro amps I believe was mostly transparent but could be pressed to show some small colorations.
The Bryston was not transparent from the factory so the guys searched for the reason for this coloration, reported back to Bryston. Bryston performed some listeing tests and came to the same conclusion and made a change to the amp. An amp was sent to Sweden for further test and prooved to be the best amp ever tested during several decades. No, I'm not affiliated with Bryston.
The findings mirrors (to a high degree) those that was presented in that article by Paul Frindle earlier in this thread.
I also think that the engineers performing these tests always find a correlation between an audible coloration and bench performance. The key is to know how to measure and what to measure.
/Peter
Possibly a defect.. I'm sure I have several.. 🙂 however why look at an interesting listening test as a competition?
I don't and therefore I can be relaxed about it.
It's been done many times allready. I have only participated in BT on CD players and microphone preamps though.
Again, the "Swedish audio society" (LTS) has done many blind tests on amps and other stuff. Only a small number (three I think) of many amps that have been tested have prooven transparent in the test set up. That should be read that most amps on the market color the signal audibly.
If I remember correct only one have prooven to be fully transparent on all levels and that is one of the top amps from Bryston. NAD 208 and one of the Halcro amps I believe was mostly transparent but could be pressed to show some small colorations.
The Bryston was not transparent from the factory so the guys searched for the reason for this coloration, reported back to Bryston. Bryston performed some listeing tests and came to the same conclusion and made a change to the amp. An amp was sent to Sweden for further test and prooved to be the best amp ever tested during several decades. No, I'm not affiliated with Bryston.
The findings mirrors (to a high degree) those that was presented in that article by Paul Frindle earlier in this thread.
I also think that the engineers performing these tests always find a correlation between an audible coloration and bench performance. The key is to know how to measure and what to measure.
/Peter
john curl said:
No, I just honestly don't understand what Bear was getting at. (You're right, I watch very little TV and my imagination is mostly limited to thinking about Scarlett Johanssen)
I also don't get that "anxiety" bit that Andre and Pan are on about. I do controlled sensory tests on a regular basis and can't ever remember being "anxious" or "feeling pressured." Jan, you were around during one of them, did I look like I was tense and unable to concentrate?
Nah, the stress factor is probably a bit overrated, at least to the experienced, and we should be the specialists, right😀
To be able to hear if amp A is better than B...well, it may be neccessary that the testpersons have heard better...😀 just kidding🙂
I think that could be concluded from Bears "TV-post" 😉
To be able to hear if amp A is better than B...well, it may be neccessary that the testpersons have heard better...😀 just kidding🙂
I think that could be concluded from Bears "TV-post" 😉
tinitus said:
I agree, the experienced should have no stress, it is not a "personal test" but when you get volunteers from the street, it can perhaps be a possibility.
SY said:
There is such a thing as performance anxiety, but I think only a few unfortunate people would actually start sweating doing audio comparisons... BUT I consider it possible that having to critically assess something, and enjoy is sensually/aesthetically at the same time, are two conflicting functions. Maybe to only a small degree, but perhaps enough to mask subtle differences when done quickly.
Like people have said before, mood plays a large roll in how much you enjoy something.
So maybe Yuri Geller really does have exceptional abilities, beyond that of the man on the street, but it is stress or scientific controls that masks them. Interesting.
cheers,
AJ
cheers,
AJ
SY said:
I think maybe you misunderstod something here.. maybe I was not clear enough. First, it was Jan who mentioned that he use to feel some anxiety. Second I said I had no such problems in connection to listening tests. When our discussion then continued I wrote some about how I function in life in general.. so if you reread the latest couple of posts maybe it become clear.
And hey, next time help Jan out feeling more relaxed and comfortable okay? 🙂
/Peter
AJinFLA said:
What purpose does a post like that serve?
What are you trying to say?
So negative and provocative these days. I can not remember that I use to read these types of comments from you back at madboard or at htguide. Remember you as a nice guy.
If you stay at a constructive level I'm sure both you and the other participants of the forum will be happier.
/Peter
Actually, Pan, that is exactly the claim that Geller made, that the presence of skeptics put him under too much pressure to perform. Especially when the skeptics were trained conjurers.
Believe your senses- the spoon really did bend once that awful Randi fellow was out of the room.
Believe your senses- the spoon really did bend once that awful Randi fellow was out of the room.
In Geller's case, yes. He was not deluded, he was the flim-flam man. Can't have someone credible catch him cheating.
For us audiophiles, the question is, are we actually fooling ourselves? And anyone honest must, given the present state of verifiable data, at least allow that as a possibility.
For us audiophiles, the question is, are we actually fooling ourselves? And anyone honest must, given the present state of verifiable data, at least allow that as a possibility.
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