bear said:
Although I don't actually have a beef with the point of your post, I'd like to point out we're talking about amps, not speakers. A typical loudspeaker with 2-5% THD [and that is typical] and response peaks and nulls of a few to tens of decibels is an entirely different ball of wax compared to any good amplifier that should be within .1dB across the audible range with a distortion figure four orders of magnitude lower.
No one debates that the differences in loudspakers can be readily audible. So it's not an entirely relevant reference point.
There is still something
Would you reveal to us something about those differences?Conrad Hoffman said:
That is interesting, because cats and dogs are rather inexpensive testpersons compared to humans.
Yes indeed.
Good speakers can show the difference between good amps. Take our word for it. (Bear's and mine) because we make amps for a living.
xiphmont said:
Typically less than 30 dB down? That you'll have to demonstrate, or be more specific.
john curl said:
I didn't say I was discounting your input, simply that I will treat a vendor with some skepticism. It's pretty simple; you want to sell us something, so the burden of proof is on you to provide something solid, something credible beyond 'trust me'. Most of the vendors advertising on this site sell things that just make me whistle and shake my head.
The response to 'spend your money our product! It's better! Trust me.' should be to walk away. Not "Oh my god! I see it your way, just because you say so. Here's my money!"
'Trust me' got the US into Iraq. I think the rest of the world agrees we were gullible idiots. Irrelevant example? I don't think so. Gullible is gullible.
And please before John or Bear take offense, I'm ranting against our gullible masses here [and the silver tongued soothsayers who mislead them] not anyone specific or as an individual. I have no reason to think John is not of sterling character. Nor can I really blame anyone tempted to part fools from their money-- it's considered a respectable profession by most.
rdf said:
I should be measuring [and posting] the curves for the CSS FR125S within the month. That's right folks-- *hard data*. OMG! Someone get the smelling salts.
(Sorry, I can't just run off and do it. One of wife/boss will notice, only get to play on weekends)
Relax xiphmont, there's already plenty of hard data available. It doesn't match your claim, at least not the way you expressed it. Zaph is as straight-laced an objectivist as you're apt to find and his driver measurements rarely show distortion exceeding 0.3% 2nd across the bulk of the used band. Show me different:
http://www.zaphaudio.com/5.5test/compare.html
http://www.zaphaudio.com/6.5test/compare.html
http://www.zaphaudio.com/tweetermishmash/compare.html
You're not cherry picking perhaps, or making claims for 100 dB when most typically listen 15-20 db lower? I know it's easy to fall into the trap that anyone who disagrees is an idiot or 'astrologist' but it's a snare with two ends.
http://www.zaphaudio.com/5.5test/compare.html
http://www.zaphaudio.com/6.5test/compare.html
http://www.zaphaudio.com/tweetermishmash/compare.html
You're not cherry picking perhaps, or making claims for 100 dB when most typically listen 15-20 db lower? I know it's easy to fall into the trap that anyone who disagrees is an idiot or 'astrologist' but it's a snare with two ends.
One look at Bear or me would tell you that we are NOT marketing people. In fact we both are just scraping a living from what we like to do best, audio. Some I have helped over the decades were marketing men, and they became rich beyond compare. One even married a movie star, and another got a trophy wife that would knock your socks off. I haven't worked for either one for almost 30 years, and I gave up with them, mostly because they hoarded
their money and didn't want to share it with me. They have poisoned audio to a certain degree, but they are not always wrong, just a lot of the time, these days. Even they started with good intentions, but greed got to them, and real audio quality was mostly second to a good story.
Mid fi is just as phony as anything in hi end, but they don't even try to make a really good design, and everything goes into appearance and marketing. They do make some pretty plastic boxes. I own plenty of video gear that is similar in construction and appearance.
By the way, have you ever heard of a Skoda Estelle, or a Yugo? (automobile) How did they rate on an objective scale, with other autos? You know, power, looks, etc. Were they really a bargain?
their money and didn't want to share it with me. They have poisoned audio to a certain degree, but they are not always wrong, just a lot of the time, these days. Even they started with good intentions, but greed got to them, and real audio quality was mostly second to a good story.
Mid fi is just as phony as anything in hi end, but they don't even try to make a really good design, and everything goes into appearance and marketing. They do make some pretty plastic boxes. I own plenty of video gear that is similar in construction and appearance.
By the way, have you ever heard of a Skoda Estelle, or a Yugo? (automobile) How did they rate on an objective scale, with other autos? You know, power, looks, etc. Were they really a bargain?
rdf said:
Thanks for that link, BTW. And to make the comparisons useful to the others looking, test methodology was here: http://www.zaphaudio.com/5.5test/
http://www.zaphaudio.com/6.5test/
...just to make it trivial for folks to click.
Your link supports my statement. Add the energies in the curves. Quite a few are peaking over -34dB (2%), especially in bass. Those are also generally a decent speaker set, so tending toward the low end of 2-5%. More importantly, the peaks and nulls and the general non-flatness of the responses are also audible. Again, several orders of magnitude beyond any kind of flaw in even a cheap but well designed amp.
Lastly, I don't actually want to **** off the good guys and vendors who have earned their trust here. But once the discussion has turned to the warmth of gold plated cables...and the justification is "I don't have any proof I just *know*..." well, objectivity, baby and the bathwater are so far out the widow, I despair.
For my next trick, I will be trying to convince my mother to stop playing the lottery. I've already failed to get her to look up chain letters on Snopes.com before forwarding them to me. Three this week alone. She's still trying to find a home for that labrador retriever. And yes... sigh... she votes Republican.
john curl said:
Yeah, my post read more directly confrontation to you and Bear than it was meant to be. The skepticism I'm expressing is rhetorical and general. Not at all aimed at the two of you.
I listen at 90 spl or less. You are most probably deaf by now, if you play at 100 dB or more, consistently, so that you can get your 3% distortion from your loudspeaker. Of course, I am talking about a good loudspeaker. I can't be sure about those $20 specials from Radioshack. I suggest a very big amplifier to get the level that you want.
john curl said:
Worse, I love big bikes with open pipes.
But I also get my hearing checked yearly as it's my living and my hearing continues to be excellent. I don't know whether it's luck or genetics.
john curl said:
I want to take this further, I've said earlier "The more revealing your system get, the more difference you will hear on different cables". I want to include every component in the chain.
I've done a "blind test" (I'm not blind 😀 ) with four of the top interconnects of a cable manufacturer, Two was silver and two copper (each balanced and coax cable but terminated single ended).
I've listened to all four of them knowing which is which, then I left the room while any one of the four was connected, then go back and listen. This was repeated about twelve times and I was able to tell which cable was playing (by name) everytime within seconds of listening.
The test was done on my own system, which I think is also important to note.
André
Xiphmont, I would buy the biggest amp that Radio Shack makes, and be done with it. Why pay more? Even better, the MCM catalog. I buy lots of stuff from them, myself.
Yes, the psychological theories of the placebo effect.tinitus said:
Without question because you don't question it? How arrogant.
Yet more arrogance (and the smiley doesn't ameliorate it). What is in fact ignorant is ignoring basic physics and promoting pseudoscience.
Oh, what a convenient excuse--it was the stress that blurred the differences 🙄
No wonder you'd find evidence that backs up common sense and physics and goes against your unsupported by science beliefs "surprising".
Quite the opposite--it's the psychological bias present in non-blind testing that is doing the fooling. You seem unable to overcome wishful thinking and will find any and all excuses possible to avoid acknowledging the truth.
Naturally, a controlled test to determine this was not performed 🙄
To whoever suggested we donate towards blind testing: people donating would want to have a say in how the test is conducted, and that means that there will be no agreement, so this is dead from the start. Such a test must be organized by mainstream psychologists and engineers, not audiophiles, or it will be meaningless.
john curl said:
Have you *been* in Radio Shack recently?
Also, RadioShack is somewhere well below the line of hardware I'd trust. All well designed, well made amps sound alike. But I'm not going to give RS the benefit of the doubt on 'well designed' or 'well made'. And I'll be paying for all that aerodynamic styling I'll never use. I seldom have to get an amp up to 100mph on the freeway. Besides, I enjoy making my own.
[Otto]Seriously, I'm sorry I ate your fish. Okay?[/Otto]
I'll bet that amp distortion can still make a difference even tough speaker THD is much higher.
Speaker distortion is usually increasing with increasing level while amlifier crossover distortion for instance rises with decreasing levels and is therefore masking fine details. Amp distortion can show all kinds of even and odd order harmonics while speakers mostly show 2nd and 3rd.
This is of course no excuse for not trying to reduce speaker distortion as much as possible.
Regards
Charles
Speaker distortion is usually increasing with increasing level while amlifier crossover distortion for instance rises with decreasing levels and is therefore masking fine details. Amp distortion can show all kinds of even and odd order harmonics while speakers mostly show 2nd and 3rd.
This is of course no excuse for not trying to reduce speaker distortion as much as possible.
Regards
Charles
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