Semi-dry Riesling please. German preferred, but New York State will do. Not sure about amps, but there's little question that not all Rieslings taste the same.
That's only because of the differences in the green tint in the bottles. But if they were all put in the same bottle and used some charcoal filtering (to even out inconsistancies of the bric from different regions and years and different oaks), blend and serve over ice while eating matzos.....
They would all taste the same.
They would all taste the same.
Re: Amplifiers
I've listened to lots of valve amps and find them not able to reproduce fast transients and complicated sound tracks correctly.
I believe a poorly designed valve amp will sound better than a poorly designed solid state amp but I could not find a valve amp yet that could compare with a good solid state. (I like your hollow state 😀)
Maybe you can comment on this.
The more revealing your system get, the more difference you will hear on different cables.
Miles Prower said:
I've listened to lots of valve amps and find them not able to reproduce fast transients and complicated sound tracks correctly.
I believe a poorly designed valve amp will sound better than a poorly designed solid state amp but I could not find a valve amp yet that could compare with a good solid state. (I like your hollow state 😀)
Maybe you can comment on this.
eastcoast said:
The more revealing your system get, the more difference you will hear on different cables.
KP11520 said:
I will. But I think more people are interested in arguing about it than actualy testing.
But maybe we can get some good arguments going over what and how the test should be, and that will lead to a better test. We shall see - and hear.
Re: Re: Amplifiers
That's because you're listening to output transformers (or in the case of OTL, poorly matched loads). Tubes are much faster than transistors. Try building a ZOTL or driving ESL panels directly with an HV tube amp. There's nothing slow about it.Andre Visser said:
Re: Re: Re: Amplifiers
I agree with you about the output transformer but I hear the same "problem" with hybrid amps and also valve pre-amps.
abzug said:
I agree with you about the output transformer but I hear the same "problem" with hybrid amps and also valve pre-amps.
Well then you're hearing something else, maybe coupling capacitors. That a tube would have problems with transients sounds nonsensical. Maybe what you think of fast transients is some form of distortion in solid state amps. Listening to a hybrid with tube output directly driving electrostatic headphones is the closest I get when listening to a classical recording to being in the local concert hall (both of which I do quite frequently). Tubes have enormous slew rate and the amp in question has closed loop bandwidth of 400 kHz.
eStatic,
It really is just a matter of memory, driven by long experience of live music unaided by electronics, a liking for complex music, an ounce of musical ability, and some intellectual effort - and it is not infallible.
It is quite easy to determine a dip at 100Hz because you can't hear the 'cellos.
A boost between 1kHz and 2kHz has the trebles shouting into your ear trumpet.
Something unpleasant at 5kHz to 6kHz makes the violins sound as if they are being bowed by steel wire rather than horsehair.
It is not difficult to determine that the BBC Philharmonic have better intonation, timing, and tone than the Orchestra of Opera North. That's why I don't go to the concert series in the local concert hall any more. Would one be more certain if they both were on the platform at the same time, sharing desks, and playing alternate phrases? I find that such A/B testing just doesn't help.
Its easy enough to hear that the Bridgewater Hall has a better acoustic than Huddersfield Town Hall - just sit where you can look up (down?) the bell of the trombone.
A good violinist at least knows when they have made a nasty noise, hence all the practice
None of this seems unusual to me, I have a number of friends and acquaintances who are much better at it than I am. Learning from them helps me to refine my listening.
Your very considerable abilities as a composer and software writer place you way, way above the 99th percentile. Those reading this thread may wish to look at this one
Regards,
Andy
It really is just a matter of memory, driven by long experience of live music unaided by electronics, a liking for complex music, an ounce of musical ability, and some intellectual effort - and it is not infallible.
It is quite easy to determine a dip at 100Hz because you can't hear the 'cellos.
A boost between 1kHz and 2kHz has the trebles shouting into your ear trumpet.
Something unpleasant at 5kHz to 6kHz makes the violins sound as if they are being bowed by steel wire rather than horsehair.
It is not difficult to determine that the BBC Philharmonic have better intonation, timing, and tone than the Orchestra of Opera North. That's why I don't go to the concert series in the local concert hall any more. Would one be more certain if they both were on the platform at the same time, sharing desks, and playing alternate phrases? I find that such A/B testing just doesn't help.
Its easy enough to hear that the Bridgewater Hall has a better acoustic than Huddersfield Town Hall - just sit where you can look up (down?) the bell of the trombone.
A good violinist at least knows when they have made a nasty noise, hence all the practice
None of this seems unusual to me, I have a number of friends and acquaintances who are much better at it than I am. Learning from them helps me to refine my listening.
Your very considerable abilities as a composer and software writer place you way, way above the 99th percentile. Those reading this thread may wish to look at this one
Regards,
Andy
panomaniac said:
I for one want testing.
I am prepared to pay for it.
If I can get 99 other contributors for the same amount I will put up $100. Much more than that I'd find hard to justify to my family.
We'll give the $10,000 to an independent organisation to perform the testing. It's not actually a great deal of money. I suggest a university, as that will feed into supporting some researchers, they have a ready population of test subjects, and we'll probably get a good deal.
I suggest cables as the first target for testing, as this is probably the most contentious area. If the money stretches, we can move on to other equipment, or maybe we can get more than 99 contributors.
Who wants to put their money where their mouth is?
w
Re: Re: Re: Amplifiers
I saw something about that elsewhere. Quite fancy doing it, but am a coward when confronted by very high voltages.
Andy
abzug said:
I saw something about that elsewhere. Quite fancy doing it, but am a coward when confronted by very high voltages.
Andy
wakibaki said:
Can't help it, I've participated in group listening tests and they are... well... not optimum.
God is in the Nuances
Have you read this: http://www.stereophile.com/features/203/index.html
If you really did read it through, what are your thoughts about it?
Have you read this: http://www.stereophile.com/features/203/index.html
If you really did read it through, what are your thoughts about it?
Re: God is in the Nuances
I'm unable to find any published research of the experiment mentioned there. Now, they mention that the author was not yet ready to publish, but this was back in 2000. Surely if there weren't any significant problems with that research, it would have been published.Nikolas Ojala said:
Re: God is in the Nuances
Poor writing. Lots of logical errors (straw men, false dichotomy/excluded middle, question begging, omission of crucial details). Par for the Stereophile course. They're in the business of selling magazines, not doing analysis.
Nikolas Ojala said:
Poor writing. Lots of logical errors (straw men, false dichotomy/excluded middle, question begging, omission of crucial details). Par for the Stereophile course. They're in the business of selling magazines, not doing analysis.
SY said:
AMEN!
A short while ago a local guitar maker compared a 2N3819 common source amplifier vs a TL072 in pickups. Several instructors at Berklee, two experienced Luthiers, and other trained musicians either could not tell the difference or had no preference. No big deal, I just found the story interesting in light of how intensely the audiophile community still fights this battle. I've given up, just like I've given up arguing with people who believe Peter Belt.
Maybe we can ask the moderators to change the name of this thread to.... "Purgatory!"
Just keep the Bandaids and Neosporin handy. Amd maybe a razor too just in case we have a "Rocky" here (cut me Mick)!
I think I'm going to switch from bananas to popcorn. Let me go make some so I have something to eat during the "entertainment!"
Regards//Keith
panomaniac said:
Just keep the Bandaids and Neosporin handy. Amd maybe a razor too just in case we have a "Rocky" here (cut me Mick)!
I think I'm going to switch from bananas to popcorn. Let me go make some so I have something to eat during the "entertainment!"
Regards//Keith
Re: God is in the Nuances
Nikolas,
the Ackermann test would drive me to distraction, starting with the chosen music.
Ackermann's research model as a psychotherapist may or may not be correct; however both my parents are dead and I have an adult, unmarried, child to continue to support emotionally. So I don't have his prescribed set of emotional needs to satisfy via my purchase of sound equipment. So that was a waste of time for me personally.
Limited frequency response is a real turn-off. If the notes disappear off the bass end of your system then you can't hear the music. If you don't have good top end then the nuances such as he described are not reproduced. I believe he contradicted himself, but haven't the energy to check it out.
Accuracy is hugely important for large scale romantic works. If you can't hear what is on the page, how can you know what emotion the composer intended? That applies to the performance, and, for home listening, the recording and the reproduction. Soundstage is only important when it is thoroughly bad, and just irritates you. None at all is better than bad in that aspect.
When one listens critically to a piece of music which is unfamiliar, accuracy, once again, is important. Playing familiar music for emotional enjoyment (particularly relaxation) is usually just prompting your memory of that music, so accuracy is less important. Your brain knows what it sounds like, other bits of the brain can be engaged elsewhere.
The tone and content of the letters bear a close resemblance to the politer posts on this thread; probably the most interesting part of wading through Mr Sauer's rather patchy article and woolly conclusion.
Thanks for an entertaining half hour.
Long post because long article(s),
Andy
Nikolas Ojala said:
Nikolas,
the Ackermann test would drive me to distraction, starting with the chosen music.
Ackermann's research model as a psychotherapist may or may not be correct; however both my parents are dead and I have an adult, unmarried, child to continue to support emotionally. So I don't have his prescribed set of emotional needs to satisfy via my purchase of sound equipment. So that was a waste of time for me personally.
Limited frequency response is a real turn-off. If the notes disappear off the bass end of your system then you can't hear the music. If you don't have good top end then the nuances such as he described are not reproduced. I believe he contradicted himself, but haven't the energy to check it out.
Accuracy is hugely important for large scale romantic works. If you can't hear what is on the page, how can you know what emotion the composer intended? That applies to the performance, and, for home listening, the recording and the reproduction. Soundstage is only important when it is thoroughly bad, and just irritates you. None at all is better than bad in that aspect.
When one listens critically to a piece of music which is unfamiliar, accuracy, once again, is important. Playing familiar music for emotional enjoyment (particularly relaxation) is usually just prompting your memory of that music, so accuracy is less important. Your brain knows what it sounds like, other bits of the brain can be engaged elsewhere.
The tone and content of the letters bear a close resemblance to the politer posts on this thread; probably the most interesting part of wading through Mr Sauer's rather patchy article and woolly conclusion.
Thanks for an entertaining half hour.
Long post because long article(s),
Andy
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