Re: Re: Test music
eStatic,
thanks for the complimentary words about the music, but how can you be rude about Bach (in public that is)? It does let you know how well the system is performing down to 36Hz.
Andy
eStatic said:
eStatic,
thanks for the complimentary words about the music, but how can you be rude about Bach (in public that is)? It does let you know how well the system is performing down to 36Hz.
Andy
Though great fun and very popular the T&F is at best a somewhat immature work and there is some controversy as to attribution. I would have picked the Passacaglia and Fugue in C minor to explore the low end and show more of Bach’s aesthetic depth as well. Bach is my favorite composer, I did not mean to insult him.
Trust me to get into trouble whilst trying to be populist!
You may notice that the other three are English composers, which is all I pay for (others come free on magazine covers etc.)
eStatic,
I put your Fugato on to CD and played it - quite loud. Only listened a couple of times - is it a palindrome?
The drum beats are very impressive, almost cupped my hands to catch the speaker cones! How is it realised? Via a MIDI generator of some sort (note that I am already past the boundary of my knowledge on this subject)
We are, of course, still on topic, because when my new set of amps. are back in service, I shall play it again to determine whether the MUSIC sounds better through them (yes, I know it's an MP3 etc. etc......)
Andy
You may notice that the other three are English composers, which is all I pay for (others come free on magazine covers etc.)
eStatic,
I put your Fugato on to CD and played it - quite loud. Only listened a couple of times - is it a palindrome?
The drum beats are very impressive, almost cupped my hands to catch the speaker cones! How is it realised? Via a MIDI generator of some sort (note that I am already past the boundary of my knowledge on this subject)
We are, of course, still on topic, because when my new set of amps. are back in service, I shall play it again to determine whether the MUSIC sounds better through them (yes, I know it's an MP3 etc. etc......)
Andy
Thanks, glad you found it worth listening to. I'll relpy at lengh in the music sub-forum as this thread has become too good to dilute.
🙂
🙂
I dunno Sy, all Matzo tastes the same to me.....
Hey, but if they all taste the same, then they can all be best - right?
Hey, but if they all taste the same, then they can all be best - right?
Andre Visser said:
Actually, "the other way round" is quite possible, as I've done it myself. The trick is to use huge amounts of gNFB. Put 20+db(v) of gNFB on a hollow state amp, and it will sound just like a solid state amp. With one project, the gNFB is variable from none at all to 12db(v). Dialing in the whole 12db(v) is definitely headed towards a solid statey sound.
Amplifiers
It has been proven several times by people with "Golden Ears" that once those criteria are met, you cannot hear a difference in amplifiers. The original stipulation (this was all created by Richard Clark, for all the criteria search his name and "amp challenge") was that tube amps could not be included, but if they wanted to compare tube amps, he could add a resistor with a solid state, and people couldn't hear the difference. He has, for many years now been doing this double blind test, and no one can prove that they hear a difference. (if you hear a difference, you should be able to say which amp is which, or atleast say that the amp currently playing is not the one you hear previous etc) He also bypasses any crossover or other frequency manipulation capabilities.
He is not saying that all amps will sound the same, he is saying that a watt is a watt, and you can't hear the difference in them, whether its from a radio shack amp or a krell. Watt for clean watt, you can't hear a difference.
I personally feel that way about cables, I see people spending thousands on cables, saying that it's really opened up the sound etc. It's wire dude, it carries electricity. So long as it is carrying current/signal sufficiently, (big enough that there is no substantial signal loss) you are essentially saying that you can hear the difference in silver vs. copper (no sound is transmitted through it, just elec) because the speakers care which metal transmits the signal...I don't think so. You can claim you hear this or that, but when it comes down to it, you just think you can.
I got in this discussion with a guy at a very high end shop in New Mexico. He was saying that cables really effect the sound blah blah. I explained my reasonings, and he said he would prove it. So I listened to some cables, me being blind to which was which, and low and behold I could hear a difference, enough that I was able to say successfully when there was a different cable almost every time. When I looked at the cable ($4000 a pair) it had a box in line with it, when I asked what was in the box, he replied "It's a passive network" It was then I realized that reasoning with this man was not going to go anywhere
It has been proven several times by people with "Golden Ears" that once those criteria are met, you cannot hear a difference in amplifiers. The original stipulation (this was all created by Richard Clark, for all the criteria search his name and "amp challenge") was that tube amps could not be included, but if they wanted to compare tube amps, he could add a resistor with a solid state, and people couldn't hear the difference. He has, for many years now been doing this double blind test, and no one can prove that they hear a difference. (if you hear a difference, you should be able to say which amp is which, or atleast say that the amp currently playing is not the one you hear previous etc) He also bypasses any crossover or other frequency manipulation capabilities.
He is not saying that all amps will sound the same, he is saying that a watt is a watt, and you can't hear the difference in them, whether its from a radio shack amp or a krell. Watt for clean watt, you can't hear a difference.
I personally feel that way about cables, I see people spending thousands on cables, saying that it's really opened up the sound etc. It's wire dude, it carries electricity. So long as it is carrying current/signal sufficiently, (big enough that there is no substantial signal loss) you are essentially saying that you can hear the difference in silver vs. copper (no sound is transmitted through it, just elec) because the speakers care which metal transmits the signal...I don't think so. You can claim you hear this or that, but when it comes down to it, you just think you can.
I got in this discussion with a guy at a very high end shop in New Mexico. He was saying that cables really effect the sound blah blah. I explained my reasonings, and he said he would prove it. So I listened to some cables, me being blind to which was which, and low and behold I could hear a difference, enough that I was able to say successfully when there was a different cable almost every time. When I looked at the cable ($4000 a pair) it had a box in line with it, when I asked what was in the box, he replied "It's a passive network" It was then I realized that reasoning with this man was not going to go anywhere
Re: Test music
It's well known that auditory short term memory is very short. What you actually need is the ability to switch instantly and seamlessly (no pause or click). This has been well studied in the field of audio compression, and maximizes the ability in those tests to tell any difference. No reason to believe it won't be the case for testing audibility of hardware as well.RAndyB said:
abzug said:
I refer you back to post #2.
abzug said:
No I don't. As I explained, I need to hear the same music through on both amps. And - yes I can remember how it sounds.
Post #139 may go some way to explaining why I make this assertion.
Well, I play piano and pipe organ, and I still don't understand that position. But hey, maybe there isn't enough "harmony" or "bad timing" in those instruments 🙄
Re: Amplifiers
And that is exactly what puzzles me, tests like that. I don't doubt the test is well run - I just don't understand them, as my experience has been so different. So I would dearly love to take part in a well defined test to hear if I am just imaging things, as the tests seem to indicate, or are the amp specs just not similar enough?
Just a recent example from last week. Testing with a friend 3 different amps and one from memory. 3 were Class-D amps, one was tube.
They were all good sounding amps, but there did seem to be differences as well as similarities.
A very revealing track was #4 on the soundtrack "Oh Brother were art thou?" It's Alison Kraus singing with only a choir in the background. The "room" in which the choir was recorded sounded different on each amp.
On amp A: Smooth and round, no noticeable detail.
Amp B: Sounds like a small church with hard wooden walls.
Amp C: Similar to B, but less obvious the size and materials of the room.
Amp M: (not tested directly, but very familiar from memory). Sounds like bad electronic reverb on the choir. Like a 90s vintage SPX90 reverb.
What 's the real deal? I don't know. Would have to ask the recording engineer and the mastering lab how the track was done. (And I might do so).
This difference in detail was easy to pick out. I'd bet money that I could tell which amp was which on this track alone. The difference in bass control was also obvious between some of the amps, especially on complex passages - a PSU issue, I think.
Yes, completely subjective. And on some tracks there is NO difference that I can hear. But when I do hear differences, they are big enough that I'm sure I could pick them out blind. And I'm willing to be proved wrong.
Thus, a test of our own.
eastcoast said:
And that is exactly what puzzles me, tests like that. I don't doubt the test is well run - I just don't understand them, as my experience has been so different. So I would dearly love to take part in a well defined test to hear if I am just imaging things, as the tests seem to indicate, or are the amp specs just not similar enough?
Just a recent example from last week. Testing with a friend 3 different amps and one from memory. 3 were Class-D amps, one was tube.
They were all good sounding amps, but there did seem to be differences as well as similarities.
A very revealing track was #4 on the soundtrack "Oh Brother were art thou?" It's Alison Kraus singing with only a choir in the background. The "room" in which the choir was recorded sounded different on each amp.
On amp A: Smooth and round, no noticeable detail.
Amp B: Sounds like a small church with hard wooden walls.
Amp C: Similar to B, but less obvious the size and materials of the room.
Amp M: (not tested directly, but very familiar from memory). Sounds like bad electronic reverb on the choir. Like a 90s vintage SPX90 reverb.
What 's the real deal? I don't know. Would have to ask the recording engineer and the mastering lab how the track was done. (And I might do so).
This difference in detail was easy to pick out. I'd bet money that I could tell which amp was which on this track alone. The difference in bass control was also obvious between some of the amps, especially on complex passages - a PSU issue, I think.
Yes, completely subjective. And on some tracks there is NO difference that I can hear. But when I do hear differences, they are big enough that I'm sure I could pick them out blind. And I'm willing to be proved wrong.
Thus, a test of our own.
Tinitus...
Car Audio has been my forte, in that realm have owned, used, worked with some of the best. Zapco, audison, U.S. Amps, DLS, worked with solid state and tubes.
Home audio I've only had Adcom, audiosource and right now, I'm using a Yamaha.
A few of the posters above are missing the point. All amps do not sound the same, that is not what I am stating, and it's not what Richard Clark is stating. What he is saying is that so long as levels are matched, output is clean-with no frequency manipulation, a watt is a watt. Krell will sound the same as Radio Shack.
Saying you listened to amp A,B and C doesn't refute anything, they were not level matched, etc....an SPL meter doesn't cut it.
I do not think that all amps sound the same, and that is why I used high end amps in my car, and good performing yet inexpensive cables. If you want to read up on the subject all the information is on Carsound.com Richard Clark's amp challenge though I'm sure he is tired of discussing it, you can read for days about it.
Car Audio has been my forte, in that realm have owned, used, worked with some of the best. Zapco, audison, U.S. Amps, DLS, worked with solid state and tubes.
Home audio I've only had Adcom, audiosource and right now, I'm using a Yamaha.
A few of the posters above are missing the point. All amps do not sound the same, that is not what I am stating, and it's not what Richard Clark is stating. What he is saying is that so long as levels are matched, output is clean-with no frequency manipulation, a watt is a watt. Krell will sound the same as Radio Shack.
Saying you listened to amp A,B and C doesn't refute anything, they were not level matched, etc....an SPL meter doesn't cut it.
I do not think that all amps sound the same, and that is why I used high end amps in my car, and good performing yet inexpensive cables. If you want to read up on the subject all the information is on Carsound.com Richard Clark's amp challenge though I'm sure he is tired of discussing it, you can read for days about it.
RAndyB said:
If you can remember the quality of sounds that well your aural tallent places leagues beyond the 99th percentile.
I'm not saying it's impossable, for surely the range of human abilities is quite extrordinary. But it is an extrordinary claim for which others will naturally require extraordinary proof.
As to post #2
When I was young I studied violin technique with a very competent concertmaster. By which I mean I studied how to write for the violin not how to play it. In any case I can assure you that even the best cannot reproduce the exact same timbre for every note each time they play a passage. But they do come close enough for aesthetic purposes.
abzug said:
Oh yes, there is! For any doubting Thomas', try to locate "Variaciones del Fandango Espanol" by Andreas Staier. If there is any timing problem anywhere in the chain (and let's be frank, it will be in speakers 99.9% of the time), you will hear it.
I think even Grand Master himself (JS) would be impressed by Staier's performance on this recording !
Edit : OK, hapsicord is not piano or organ, but it has keys, right 😉
Sy likes the Matzo because it is DRY
And that my friends........... is a great reason to drink some wine.
Michael is the guy that is actually trying to start with designing a diyaudio test criteria that just may be the theme at Sy's next amp festival.
Sy, this is a good time to have some wine!
Not the "Burning Amp" festival but the "All amps sound the same festival" with full representation from both camps. And it will be put to bed. But the test criteria needs to be bullet proof and adhered to. (Please leave all weapons at the door)
And while you are at it, one day should be spent on "Can cables actually change the sound?"
With these two subjects, the attendance will be extraordinary. Everyone has an opinion. So much passion and half the crowd so disappointed while the other half gloats. Which camp will YOU be in?
So don't regress and rebeat this to death again, rather help to design the best test yet so it can be finished once and for all at Sy's.
Michael, maybe it is time to make a new thread to develop this test!
What do you guys think? I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't want this to be proven one way or the other in our forum! We don't seem to want to believe anything else that is out there.
And that my friends........... is a great reason to drink some wine.
Michael is the guy that is actually trying to start with designing a diyaudio test criteria that just may be the theme at Sy's next amp festival.
Sy, this is a good time to have some wine!
Not the "Burning Amp" festival but the "All amps sound the same festival" with full representation from both camps. And it will be put to bed. But the test criteria needs to be bullet proof and adhered to. (Please leave all weapons at the door)
And while you are at it, one day should be spent on "Can cables actually change the sound?"
With these two subjects, the attendance will be extraordinary. Everyone has an opinion. So much passion and half the crowd so disappointed while the other half gloats. Which camp will YOU be in?
So don't regress and rebeat this to death again, rather help to design the best test yet so it can be finished once and for all at Sy's.
Michael, maybe it is time to make a new thread to develop this test!
What do you guys think? I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't want this to be proven one way or the other in our forum! We don't seem to want to believe anything else that is out there.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.