bear said:
Bear,
I've had that experience with amplifiers. And they continue to sound bad even if you don't switch back and forth without knowing which is which.
My reference point, as most will be bored of reading, is the concert hall.
André,
I've only tried generic multi-strand speaker cable against house wiring cable. The latter is still in. One friend gave his silver plated expensive speaker cable to his son - because it sounded awful to the dad. No report on the son's reaction.
I'm impressed, not sceptical, that you can tell the speaker cables blind.
So, for my intended balanced setup, do I buy the cheap unbranded cable or spend two and a half times as much on branded, silver-plated cable? The cost is 30 pounds and the amplifiers cost several hundred pounds. Trying both is the DIY route, and that is what I shall do. Currently I have one with the very cheapest, and one with slightly better, low noise cable. Haven't yet noticed a difference between them.
Andy
abzug said:
Quite completely disagree.
But this has turned into a cable thread anyhow, so what's the point?
Andre, if you can do that under double blind conditions, there's a million dollars waiting for you.
BTW, the wire test I mentioned before had an interesting lesson for me. It was run as a preference test ("Which do you like better?"), well coached by the demonstrator who never even considered asking "Do you hear any difference?" No, the patter assumed there was a difference, and certainly biased the listeners toward hearing one, whether it existed or not. Not dishonesty, just incompetent test design.
I was sitting next to John Broskie (a well-known tube designer) who made an interesting and useful observation: locational peer pressure. Because the voting was by show of hands (big methodological flaw!), the distribution of preference tended to be localized, i.e., preferences varied depending on where you were in the crowd.
There were also no controls; whenever the switch was switched, there would always be a change.
Amusingly, the presenter started the talk by saying that he could switch back to the reference position on request. The first time I made the request, he demurred by saying, "Well, we don't have time for that if we want to get through the other choices."
Coaching, single blind, no controls, peer pressure... what a mess. And that's what these audiophile gang-bang tests always degenerate to.
I was sitting next to John Broskie (a well-known tube designer) who made an interesting and useful observation: locational peer pressure. Because the voting was by show of hands (big methodological flaw!), the distribution of preference tended to be localized, i.e., preferences varied depending on where you were in the crowd.
There were also no controls; whenever the switch was switched, there would always be a change.
Amusingly, the presenter started the talk by saying that he could switch back to the reference position on request. The first time I made the request, he demurred by saying, "Well, we don't have time for that if we want to get through the other choices."
Coaching, single blind, no controls, peer pressure... what a mess. And that's what these audiophile gang-bang tests always degenerate to.
SKin Effect
As mentioned, skin effect will not come into play. I'ts pretty much the resistance that will. If you have wire of equal resistance, it will sound the same, no matter what material.
As for the $10k comment, you wouldn't need to build a lab, I think R.C. would come down, set it up, and do the amp and wire testing for you as well, at a place of your choosing.
Once again I hear people saying"well I compared this amp with that amp, this transport with that one"
All amps do not sound the same, when minimalized to bare bones amplification, and level matched though, they do, thats all.
In my belief, all wires sound the same, if they offer equal resistance.
As mentioned, skin effect will not come into play. I'ts pretty much the resistance that will. If you have wire of equal resistance, it will sound the same, no matter what material.
As for the $10k comment, you wouldn't need to build a lab, I think R.C. would come down, set it up, and do the amp and wire testing for you as well, at a place of your choosing.
Once again I hear people saying"well I compared this amp with that amp, this transport with that one"
All amps do not sound the same, when minimalized to bare bones amplification, and level matched though, they do, thats all.
In my belief, all wires sound the same, if they offer equal resistance.
various-
I bought a RS "Sherwood" 100W/ch amp for the TV system. It was $99. It's pretty good, but given the application I've never even bothered to put it on the test bench. The bad part- changing the channel on the TV affects the amps remote, and it changes the volume at the same time. Black tape fixes that.
Thinking back, my wife has never commented on an amp change, only things having to do with the active crossover, speakers and placement. As we've gotten older, both our hearings have degraded. I think her high end was better up to about age 45, but at 50+ we're pretty similar. Loud music is more annoying. It might just be taste, but she likes certain types of high-end-rich Latin and other music, that I now find more irritating than I used to. It seems like my tolerance for flaws in high frequency reproduction is much less than it used to be, but I think that's a documented age related hearing problem. Unfortunately, even if you don't expose yourself to SPL abuse, hearing slowly deteriorates over the years.
Don't get me wrong, I still hear quite well, but anybody approaching or over 50 has to at least keep an open mind that somebody younger might pick up on things they can't. OTOH, by the time you're smart enough to know what you're hearing, you can't hear it.
I bought a RS "Sherwood" 100W/ch amp for the TV system. It was $99. It's pretty good, but given the application I've never even bothered to put it on the test bench. The bad part- changing the channel on the TV affects the amps remote, and it changes the volume at the same time. Black tape fixes that.
Thinking back, my wife has never commented on an amp change, only things having to do with the active crossover, speakers and placement. As we've gotten older, both our hearings have degraded. I think her high end was better up to about age 45, but at 50+ we're pretty similar. Loud music is more annoying. It might just be taste, but she likes certain types of high-end-rich Latin and other music, that I now find more irritating than I used to. It seems like my tolerance for flaws in high frequency reproduction is much less than it used to be, but I think that's a documented age related hearing problem. Unfortunately, even if you don't expose yourself to SPL abuse, hearing slowly deteriorates over the years.
Don't get me wrong, I still hear quite well, but anybody approaching or over 50 has to at least keep an open mind that somebody younger might pick up on things they can't. OTOH, by the time you're smart enough to know what you're hearing, you can't hear it.
About 15 years ago I had a little tube preamp
It was a proto made by an ingeneer
On input there was a simple toggle to switch between 2 inputs
I tried to remove the toggle so there was only one input straight to pre
It actually did sound better that way
I am and have never been a fanatic, but just simply accepted that the pre sounded better with only one input, like the most natural thing
Could be interferense, grounding issues, microfonic or whatever, dont matter, the differense was clearly audible
It was a proto made by an ingeneer
On input there was a simple toggle to switch between 2 inputs
I tried to remove the toggle so there was only one input straight to pre
It actually did sound better that way
I am and have never been a fanatic, but just simply accepted that the pre sounded better with only one input, like the most natural thing
Could be interferense, grounding issues, microfonic or whatever, dont matter, the differense was clearly audible
xiphmont,
On two occasions recently you have let politics slip into your posts. Just a reminder that we don't allow that here.
Thank you.
On two occasions recently you have let politics slip into your posts. Just a reminder that we don't allow that here.
Thank you.
I would like to point out a couple of things: I wear a Timex watch that is locked in to WWV. I bought it at Radioshack. I have 2 Sound Level meters that were made for Radio Shack, these are fairly accurate, compared to the latest version, however. RS is a good bargain, in my opinion, for batteries and minor electronic tools, as well.
It should be accepted that RS makes cost effective stuff, and sometimes it will fail to do 'everything' right, but it is a convenient place to shop.
Another recommendation for the hear no difference folks are the professional amps that offer quite a bargain, and even automotive amps. Unfortunatey, you might have to build your own high current 12V power supply, but this IS a DIY website and someone should be able to provide a good design for it, if it has not been offered already.
I am completely serious with my recommendations, with regard to X------, and anyone else who listens loud and with high distortion speakers.
It should be accepted that RS makes cost effective stuff, and sometimes it will fail to do 'everything' right, but it is a convenient place to shop.
Another recommendation for the hear no difference folks are the professional amps that offer quite a bargain, and even automotive amps. Unfortunatey, you might have to build your own high current 12V power supply, but this IS a DIY website and someone should be able to provide a good design for it, if it has not been offered already.
I am completely serious with my recommendations, with regard to X------, and anyone else who listens loud and with high distortion speakers.
As I said before I am a REALIST.
Having said that, I am puzzled, confused and this question is sincere:
Those of you who are taking the position that amps (level matched, or whatever else you postulate) are indestinguishable, what in the world are you doing on this DiyAudio site? Are you interested in circuit desgins? Building things? What?? What's the point? Which amp design(s) do you folks say is sufficiently good so that you don't need another (ever)?? (is Self's "Blameless" good enough then?)
And, importantly, IF you are taking this view, please share with us what amp you presently use - and if you think it reaches that level such that it is sufficiently good??
I'm very sincere in asking.
Not looking to flame at all.
In fact, feel free to email me privately, if you are worried about being flamed or attacked - I will keep your login/name out of any of my comments.
Regards to all,
_-_-bear
Having said that, I am puzzled, confused and this question is sincere:
Those of you who are taking the position that amps (level matched, or whatever else you postulate) are indestinguishable, what in the world are you doing on this DiyAudio site? Are you interested in circuit desgins? Building things? What?? What's the point? Which amp design(s) do you folks say is sufficiently good so that you don't need another (ever)?? (is Self's "Blameless" good enough then?)
And, importantly, IF you are taking this view, please share with us what amp you presently use - and if you think it reaches that level such that it is sufficiently good??
I'm very sincere in asking.
Not looking to flame at all.
In fact, feel free to email me privately, if you are worried about being flamed or attacked - I will keep your login/name out of any of my comments.
Regards to all,
_-_-bear
Re: SKin Effect
Andy, so far I didn't find a plated cable that I like. What I normally suggest is that you experiment with a few cables (interconnect and speaker), if you don't hear a difference, good for you. It is important that the cable match the system, to me fitting good (normally expensive) cable on a lower quality system is just as much a waste of money than fitting poor quality cable on a good system.
Seeing that you are from UK, try and organise some Ecosse cable (Scotland), I would like to hear your thoughts on that. I normally let their cables play on a dummy load for about a week, they sound quite terrible when new.
I've heard about that one, pity it's halfway around the world from me. 😀
I have no desire to interfere with your believes because I felt the same as you, however at this stage I'm convinced that there is more aspects playing a role in a cable's ability to transfer an audio signal without loss or distortion than it's resistance and capacitance. Based on the differences I hear, all cables is filters in some way, the better ones less so.
Perhaps it's not the right thread to talk about cables but if you expect to hear differences between amplifiers, I believe it is something important to consider.
André
RAndyB said:
Andy, so far I didn't find a plated cable that I like. What I normally suggest is that you experiment with a few cables (interconnect and speaker), if you don't hear a difference, good for you. It is important that the cable match the system, to me fitting good (normally expensive) cable on a lower quality system is just as much a waste of money than fitting poor quality cable on a good system.
Seeing that you are from UK, try and organise some Ecosse cable (Scotland), I would like to hear your thoughts on that. I normally let their cables play on a dummy load for about a week, they sound quite terrible when new.
SY said:
I've heard about that one, pity it's halfway around the world from me. 😀
eastcoast said:
I have no desire to interfere with your believes because I felt the same as you, however at this stage I'm convinced that there is more aspects playing a role in a cable's ability to transfer an audio signal without loss or distortion than it's resistance and capacitance. Based on the differences I hear, all cables is filters in some way, the better ones less so.
Perhaps it's not the right thread to talk about cables but if you expect to hear differences between amplifiers, I believe it is something important to consider.
André
Regarding double blind tests in audio, there is a quite simple rule in the game- setting up a really scientific (that means objective, reliable and valid) test isn´t as easy at it seems. 🙂
So the first step would be to learn from other test departments (psychological studies for instance) and to read some of the standard literature to get a feeling for the important parameters.
It´s sometimes really surprising what is already known about certain types of influences for human testers.
One has to keep in mind that every audio test has to rely on the hearing ability of humans and is therefore always as much a test for the listeners as it is for a (possibly existing) difference.
A test designer has to think about a whole lot of parameters and one of these is the choice of a test protocol.
As SY has already pointed out ABX is only one of the protocols available, others would be ABC/HR or MUSHRA, but of course we are not restricted to these, or could (carefully) implement some modifications.
The listeners should have trained listening in general and should have trained to work under the circumstances of the specific test situation to get the best results.
But in the end, there is only one way to know something about the strengths of a specific test design, and that is to include positive controls and negative controls.
Wishes
So the first step would be to learn from other test departments (psychological studies for instance) and to read some of the standard literature to get a feeling for the important parameters.
It´s sometimes really surprising what is already known about certain types of influences for human testers.
One has to keep in mind that every audio test has to rely on the hearing ability of humans and is therefore always as much a test for the listeners as it is for a (possibly existing) difference.
A test designer has to think about a whole lot of parameters and one of these is the choice of a test protocol.
As SY has already pointed out ABX is only one of the protocols available, others would be ABC/HR or MUSHRA, but of course we are not restricted to these, or could (carefully) implement some modifications.
The listeners should have trained listening in general and should have trained to work under the circumstances of the specific test situation to get the best results.
But in the end, there is only one way to know something about the strengths of a specific test design, and that is to include positive controls and negative controls.
Wishes
bear said:
Of the four power amplifiers I've owned/built, they obviously sounded different. But the BIG question is, IF the amps meet a criterion (they are level matched, not clipping, aren't stressed by speaker impedance, the speaker system high resolution enough, same class, or whatever..) WOULD they sound the same? None of my amps were ever compared beyond my swapping them (ie, totally uncontrolled, including no attempt to match levels), so I can't answer the above question. Clearly, the amps sounded different though. Interestingly, the cheap solid state Sony, and the Creek 5350se (solid state, stereophile class A) were the most difficult to tell apart..
Some people have made up their mind, and some people don't care - but I'm here, one, because I enjoy making this stuff, and two, because I want to make better stuff. I think controlled testing would be a good tool for determining if an amp (or whatever), has gotten better. It lends validity to whatever the findings are. The real kicker would be to find some transition point (or minimum quality standard), above which changes brought about no significant difference.
I have way to little experience to know if there is a limit on how good amps can be, or if any amp has gotten near there. But to me, controlled testing would be a powerful way to try and control they myriad of variables inherent in audio reproduction. So far, the only evidence for amplifiers 'goodness' is the reviewer's word or our own experience. Wouldn't it be nice to have some evidence that was a little more concrete?
Re: Re: SKin Effect
Filters what and distorts what? Capacitance and resistance/impedance are all that really matter, and past a certain point, it doesn't anymore....I'm very sincere in asking this question also. I think this thread has done a great job of staying flame free. Answer that question and I won't bring up cables again in this thread. Silver has less resistance than copper, so theoretically you would also be able to tell the difference between different gauges of copper....it just doesn't make sense to me, once you pass a certain point, its just for peace of mind IMO.
The entire audio system is full of different mismatched metals, in the end hitting a copper VC. Swapping a link inbetween, aside from an electrically measurable difference (C/R/I)doesn't change the copper voice coils behavior.
Just my opinion. I'll shut up now.
P.S. I enjoy this forum tremendously.
Andre Visser said:
Filters what and distorts what? Capacitance and resistance/impedance are all that really matter, and past a certain point, it doesn't anymore....I'm very sincere in asking this question also. I think this thread has done a great job of staying flame free. Answer that question and I won't bring up cables again in this thread. Silver has less resistance than copper, so theoretically you would also be able to tell the difference between different gauges of copper....it just doesn't make sense to me, once you pass a certain point, its just for peace of mind IMO.
The entire audio system is full of different mismatched metals, in the end hitting a copper VC. Swapping a link inbetween, aside from an electrically measurable difference (C/R/I)doesn't change the copper voice coils behavior.
Just my opinion. I'll shut up now.
P.S. I enjoy this forum tremendously.
bear said:
I'm with you on this one, Bear. I asked essentially the same question back in post #140. There was no answer.
But most of the posters here DO seem to think there are differences, maybe the "no diff" camp has packed up and left in disgust.
For those who sincerely believe that watts are watts and all amps sound the same (given some limitations) - what then do you like? What is good enough? What is the point beyond which there is no need to go?
Re: Re: Re: SKin Effect
You can get cables that sound bright or harsch and other can bring out more of the bass. You also lose detail especially in the low level signals. The better cables have less of these effects.
I've experimented with different gauges copper wire for speaker cables and found that +-1,5mm cable give good detail in the highs but the bass suffered, 4mm cable sound good on bass but the highs were bad. So I would say 2.5mm is a good COMPROMISE.
A few things I think is capable of "eating away" on detail is perhaps the magnetic field that is created by the signal itself (lost energy), in that case also vibration (induced current by cable moving in a magnetic field) certain dielectrics is claimed to store and release energy. It is always good to keep cables as short as possible.
André
eastcoast said:
You can get cables that sound bright or harsch and other can bring out more of the bass. You also lose detail especially in the low level signals. The better cables have less of these effects.
I've experimented with different gauges copper wire for speaker cables and found that +-1,5mm cable give good detail in the highs but the bass suffered, 4mm cable sound good on bass but the highs were bad. So I would say 2.5mm is a good COMPROMISE.
A few things I think is capable of "eating away" on detail is perhaps the magnetic field that is created by the signal itself (lost energy), in that case also vibration (induced current by cable moving in a magnetic field) certain dielectrics is claimed to store and release energy. It is always good to keep cables as short as possible.
André
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