You just need to look for a speaker with a flatish impedance curve. Elsinore is one, but you probably need more power. Clues could be pulled from the project for other applications… Scott & i did that for some of th eproposed Nanosaurus XO starting points. Add the Crites crossover to LaScala(?) and it has a pretty flat curve. There are others that aren’t too bad. But many more that are bad or worse.
A good WAW can bring no/few excuses to your Alpairs. Add some helper woofers and biamp. Quattrofish’s latest efforts are notable in that respect (and he just went form 1 woofer to 2). And he is using a 2-3w(?) Bottlehead right now with the passive XO, not really the right amp to run them full range but you get the feeling he has a BIG smile on his face.
Which Alpairs? I am currently listening to an A5.2eN/prototype version of these. Decidely compact.
dave
I’m using the Alpair 10p in a pensil design. I’ll probably put them in your horn design soon just for kicks.
I like them. Honestly I just get an itch to build something new now and then and I wanted to see how to get more while still keeping the small package of the alpair 10. I figured in order to get better - a multi way was a good place to look. I’d prefer not to have a second unit to drive bass.
My core question is - keeping a similar size - what’s the best I can get out of my amp?
I like them. Honestly I just get an itch to build something new now and then and I wanted to see how to get more while still keeping the small package of the alpair 10. I figured in order to get better - a multi way was a good place to look. I’d prefer not to have a second unit to drive bass.
My core question is - keeping a similar size - what’s the best I can get out of my amp?
I could drive these louder than needed in a 700sqft living room and a 2A3 SET
Speaker Design Works
Best midbass punch ever heard!
Speaker Design Works
Best midbass punch ever heard!
Ok, now we are talking, I have the same issue as the OP (making a speaker to fit my 6-7W SE.
How does the Uluwatu sound? Midrange? Voices? Imaging? Its definitely easier on the wallet than Troel's designs.
Not a too bad an impedance on these:
The bump at 1kHz might be suffucent to intrude…
No shortage of woofers.
dave
The Discovery 861 has a nice impedance profile as well. It dips a little low but that designs sensitivity, impedance curve and relatively low cost drivers is starting to grow on me. The only downside is you have to purchase the crossover from Jantzen as the design is not public.
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I honestly didn’t think this would be a hard question. SET amps aren’t exclusively running full range speakers. I just assumed someone would say “oh yeah. What you want to do is follow these designs here”. Which. To be fair. Might be the first page that someone linked. Also. The alpair 10 pensil is small. But not thaaat small either.
I may take Dave at his word and assume that 90+ Db isn’t actually what people need and go from there.
I guess I was wrong. Sorry if it offended you. I guess I should learn to pre-empt knowledge I don’t have better. (Crystal ball?).
I may take Dave at his word and assume that 90+ Db isn’t actually what people need and go from there.
I guess I was wrong. Sorry if it offended you. I guess I should learn to pre-empt knowledge I don’t have better. (Crystal ball?).
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@jderimig
I have heard the Discovery 861 here in Italy before the lockdown and caused quite a stir with a friend of mine who built it for/with his son. Led to a lot of upgrading and audionervosa on his part. Can't have the son have a better speaker than him😉 Wife not happy, son's musician girlfriend very happy though
I can wholeheartedly recommend this if you are looking at getting a natural speaker that makes instrument sounds exactly as they should, oboe like an oboe, superbly integrated, airy. Imaging extremely close to fullrange driver (basically time aligned) without the horrible bass and treble and compromises. If you know the Vandersteen speakers it's a bit similar in sound except much higher efficiency. Your amp will be the limiting factor for the bass, at 6 watts. You can really feed it with very good gear and your source, preamp, amp, cables and power source will be the limiting factor, until you go quite highend, multiple times the speaker value.
Anyway get the best configuration if you can. Simple crossover, here the fancy caps are so few that even in the best configuration the kit is less than €1K with everything except wood and glue, and Troels did select a very nice combo for the drivers without going crazy. You can throw together the crossover and compare to simple films and easily here the difference. Intresting experiment of sound/timbre vs. just measurement IMO.
Spend the rest €1K on another amp to have monoblocks. The 6+8 seems to be better for weak amps than a single 10" somehow, or because closer wall placement???. Very easy build and can be placed fairly close to the wall as well.
Good in low listening as well. I would go with 12+ watts for the bass though unless you listen very quietly or in a small room. Upper bass closed box punch and lower bass BR low end,best of both worlds 😉 combines to that bass naturalness and a very good softdome regardless of price. Odd not more have been built, it's slim, very smooth and a tube dream, but 6 watt is pushing it for my personal taste because it goes lower than you'd expect with very nice highs, seemles natural mids&bass.
Only thing is the drivers look very plain, but for the price unbeatable if you want true reproduction of music and long term listenability, beyond just measuring correctly😉 There is a reason they are on the top of the Troels page
A disclaimer, I am biased against most full range drivers, even Voxativs have twizzy highs IMO. If you only care about midrange and want to go cheap or BL horn it's the way to go, but with 6" full range no comparison to a 6 plus 8" in bass, surface area and low end.
Cheers
@ Kyngfish
I think he was refering to Hoffman's iron law. You cannot have efficiency, low end and small size, physically not possible. The pensils are about as small as you'll get with many, many compromises, but also heard good things about them if you really like small full ranges on a budget.
Hoffman’s Iron Laws of Speaker Building | Speaker Design
I have heard the Discovery 861 here in Italy before the lockdown and caused quite a stir with a friend of mine who built it for/with his son. Led to a lot of upgrading and audionervosa on his part. Can't have the son have a better speaker than him😉 Wife not happy, son's musician girlfriend very happy though
I can wholeheartedly recommend this if you are looking at getting a natural speaker that makes instrument sounds exactly as they should, oboe like an oboe, superbly integrated, airy. Imaging extremely close to fullrange driver (basically time aligned) without the horrible bass and treble and compromises. If you know the Vandersteen speakers it's a bit similar in sound except much higher efficiency. Your amp will be the limiting factor for the bass, at 6 watts. You can really feed it with very good gear and your source, preamp, amp, cables and power source will be the limiting factor, until you go quite highend, multiple times the speaker value.
Anyway get the best configuration if you can. Simple crossover, here the fancy caps are so few that even in the best configuration the kit is less than €1K with everything except wood and glue, and Troels did select a very nice combo for the drivers without going crazy. You can throw together the crossover and compare to simple films and easily here the difference. Intresting experiment of sound/timbre vs. just measurement IMO.
Spend the rest €1K on another amp to have monoblocks. The 6+8 seems to be better for weak amps than a single 10" somehow, or because closer wall placement???. Very easy build and can be placed fairly close to the wall as well.
Good in low listening as well. I would go with 12+ watts for the bass though unless you listen very quietly or in a small room. Upper bass closed box punch and lower bass BR low end,best of both worlds 😉 combines to that bass naturalness and a very good softdome regardless of price. Odd not more have been built, it's slim, very smooth and a tube dream, but 6 watt is pushing it for my personal taste because it goes lower than you'd expect with very nice highs, seemles natural mids&bass.
Only thing is the drivers look very plain, but for the price unbeatable if you want true reproduction of music and long term listenability, beyond just measuring correctly😉 There is a reason they are on the top of the Troels page
A disclaimer, I am biased against most full range drivers, even Voxativs have twizzy highs IMO. If you only care about midrange and want to go cheap or BL horn it's the way to go, but with 6" full range no comparison to a 6 plus 8" in bass, surface area and low end.
Cheers
@ Kyngfish
I think he was refering to Hoffman's iron law. You cannot have efficiency, low end and small size, physically not possible. The pensils are about as small as you'll get with many, many compromises, but also heard good things about them if you really like small full ranges on a budget.
Hoffman’s Iron Laws of Speaker Building | Speaker Design
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Kyngfish, it isn't like that. The size of the cabinets alone has an effect on sensitivity. The size of the drivers, for different reasons have an effect on sensitivity. Asking for efficient and small at the same time is a specific challenge.
That’s going to be extremely relative.
There are larger floor standers that are obviously much better but plenty of multi way speakers - even high end ones that are highly regarded are not much of a bigger footprint than the pensil. Some of them even have really high efficiency.
Why is this even relevant. Why is it that the purpose of so many forums whose basis is to simply explore information and learn turns into a snide display of condescension.
I asked a question and I had some followup questions. I think I can be the judge of what is too big or too small. I’m not married to the exact dimension of the pensil.
There are larger floor standers that are obviously much better but plenty of multi way speakers - even high end ones that are highly regarded are not much of a bigger footprint than the pensil. Some of them even have really high efficiency.
Why is this even relevant. Why is it that the purpose of so many forums whose basis is to simply explore information and learn turns into a snide display of condescension.
I asked a question and I had some followup questions. I think I can be the judge of what is too big or too small. I’m not married to the exact dimension of the pensil.
Hoffman's iron law.
Quick google search should show there is no condescension in Allen's message.
Quick google search should show there is no condescension in Allen's message.
Dunno. Klipsch. Zu Audio. And a bunch of boutique manufacturers at least seem to market some pretty efficient speakers in a reasonable footprint. Some of them are pretty well regarded. Again. Seems pretty relative. I wasn’t asking about bookshelf speakers.
If you are not limited by cost and size, I would tell you to buy the TQWT Mk III kit, the construction is simple, it is a high sensitivity, great sounding cabinet. Troels thought it exclusively for 300B or similar amplifiers.
If you want to save shipping costs, the Seas T35 tweeter is easy to buy in the USA, as are the components of the xover.
And the JA8008 HMQ until a while ago Jantzen sold it separately in Europe, I imagine that it is still available. The only drawback would be the construction of the waveguide,
- I am not condescending - 😀 , there you are on your own.......
DTQWT-mkIII
If you want to save shipping costs, the Seas T35 tweeter is easy to buy in the USA, as are the components of the xover.
And the JA8008 HMQ until a while ago Jantzen sold it separately in Europe, I imagine that it is still available. The only drawback would be the construction of the waveguide,
- I am not condescending - 😀 , there you are on your own.......
DTQWT-mkIII
Thanks for the report! I already have a PP amp planned for 15-20W easy, plus I do have my RAM9 at 125WPC. I am just getting into the SE amp building hobby and love the sound. The D861 sounds sweet especially for the cost. Was also considering the Faital-3wc and DTQWT but that is another $1K and I am not sure how much more I get for the step change in cost. Decisions-Decisions.
I forget to mention that the impedance curve measured by Troels says:
" Minimum impedance of 100
- 1000 Hz is 7 ohms and 5 ohms above 8 kHz. In general, it is easy
amplifier load. "
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/JA8008.pdf
8 watts 300B SET amp with a good power supply, I would be content with a quality 91dB over "Pro Audio" 96dB designed to handle 600 watts and fill a dance club with sound!
*just throwing out ideas, I don't know enough to say any of this will actually work out*
If you can get away with a 10" driver I'm liking what I'm seeing of the Kartesian Wom250_vHE which appears as though it could work in a 2-way if crossed at ~ 1.2Khz - 1.5Khz range.
Maybe with the Seas Excel T35C-002 35mm Mid-Tweeter
Or a ribbon crossed at 1.6K Raal "Original 140-15D" Ribbon Tweeter with Amorphous Core
Could do horn loading @ 1.2K -
Horn No. 1155 for RAAL 70-20XR Pure Ribbon Tweeter – Joseph Crowe
Wom250_vHE | .Kartesian
T&S parameters
Fs : 34Hz
SPL : 91.5dB /2,8V /1m
Re : 6Ω
Qms : 6.4%
Qts : 0.39%
Bl : 12.45N/A
VAS : 71.3L
Mms : 51.4g
Sd : 346cm²
*just throwing out ideas, I don't know enough to say any of this will actually work out*
If you can get away with a 10" driver I'm liking what I'm seeing of the Kartesian Wom250_vHE which appears as though it could work in a 2-way if crossed at ~ 1.2Khz - 1.5Khz range.
Maybe with the Seas Excel T35C-002 35mm Mid-Tweeter
Or a ribbon crossed at 1.6K Raal "Original 140-15D" Ribbon Tweeter with Amorphous Core
Could do horn loading @ 1.2K -
Horn No. 1155 for RAAL 70-20XR Pure Ribbon Tweeter – Joseph Crowe
Wom250_vHE | .Kartesian
T&S parameters
Fs : 34Hz
SPL : 91.5dB /2,8V /1m
Re : 6Ω
Qms : 6.4%
Qts : 0.39%
Bl : 12.45N/A
VAS : 71.3L
Mms : 51.4g
Sd : 346cm²
I am still very intrigued by the Uluwatu. Hardly any investment compared to the Troels kits. Not much to lose. If it doesn't work out you have enough drivers to make 6 decent bookshelf speakers. If it sounds good you saved close to a $grand.
No, just what you ideally want that meets ALL the needs of your app and then let us 'bust your bubble' if what any you're asking for defies the laws of physics.