for small power ClassA amps (e.g. ACA = 6W/chan) I take the following approach:
a) I multi-amp so I can use those on mid & high range only,
b) I use active Xover so I do not have to deal with the load impedance issues or with gain differences between the amps; that also gives me EQ capability,
c) I can boost bass for low level listening (check posts here on equal loudness curves to understand why that is necessary).
As for getting a fully passive design one has to understand your expectations for listening distance, listening coverage (a.k.a. window"), listening volume, room size, room reflections (kind of advanced topic), and the type of music material.
For live events music I find open baffles to be the absolute best but those are completely off the beaten path in re: to their size and room placement. A box design for a good all-round performance and with flat impedance (i.e. easy to drive) is Elsinores (already mentioned). They however are pretty big floorstanders (85L) and they require some listening distance for the multiple drivers to fully integrate (so they are not for a small room).
Insisting on a single amp to drive bass while keeping the driver size small and the footprint small does not make for a feasible goal. If you sacrifice deep bass requirement and settle for close range listening in a modest size sweet spot you could maybe consider some monitors.
I hope this helps.
a) I multi-amp so I can use those on mid & high range only,
b) I use active Xover so I do not have to deal with the load impedance issues or with gain differences between the amps; that also gives me EQ capability,
c) I can boost bass for low level listening (check posts here on equal loudness curves to understand why that is necessary).
As for getting a fully passive design one has to understand your expectations for listening distance, listening coverage (a.k.a. window"), listening volume, room size, room reflections (kind of advanced topic), and the type of music material.
For live events music I find open baffles to be the absolute best but those are completely off the beaten path in re: to their size and room placement. A box design for a good all-round performance and with flat impedance (i.e. easy to drive) is Elsinores (already mentioned). They however are pretty big floorstanders (85L) and they require some listening distance for the multiple drivers to fully integrate (so they are not for a small room).
Insisting on a single amp to drive bass while keeping the driver size small and the footprint small does not make for a feasible goal. If you sacrifice deep bass requirement and settle for close range listening in a modest size sweet spot you could maybe consider some monitors.
I hope this helps.
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@planet 10
How am I determening distortion? That is a really, really good question, and why measurements are really only useful up to a point. I tend to be a subjectivist more in the shoes of John Atkins, actually quite a bit less trusting in measurements😉. My point was as Geddes states that the loudpeakers account for 99% or 98% of distortion, or the vast majority of distortion since he didn't want to get nailed down to any numbers😉
One of the main points is not running speakers at levels that increase distortion above noise floor, which is what a lot of the small Sd low efficiency speakers do in most listening environments and at most listening levels. Everything is a compromise from the perfect point source doing all of the frequency spectrum.
Knowing what compromise makes you, or your client, happy without one form of "distortion" distracting or preventing you from connecting with the music is in my experience very subjective, and some distortion is actually necessary (e.g. not a huge fan of the almost perfectly measuring Benchmark Amps and systems for playback). So I determine distortion as that what gets in the way, although that is technically not really correct since there are many other factors involved e.g. in the time domain, even visual cues such as pumping speaker cones😉
The thing I tend to look for is not ever having a speaker, or amp for that matter strain, leaving enough "headroom" to be effortless goes a long way. High efficiency speakers, low Mms, 2-3x Wattage of power needed, excess Sd and minimal cone movement is what I have found to work best in general, but there are of course exceptions. The big issue is price and size and if you can compromise there. The best IMO are still the Western Electric Silbatone speakers you hear at the High End in Munich from the 1930s run off of 1W or 1/2W. But convince your wife to have those in house😉
Regarding the TAD, I assume the TAD 1601b's that must have been a cool project. You did not even like those compression drivers in that combo😉
TAD is one of those companies that just gets it right every time I go to a show or a recording studio, I expect them to once miss, they never do not ever, just one of those companies that know what they are doing, definitely the crown jewel of Pioneer, if they just weren't as pricey...
Cheers W
How am I determening distortion? That is a really, really good question, and why measurements are really only useful up to a point. I tend to be a subjectivist more in the shoes of John Atkins, actually quite a bit less trusting in measurements😉. My point was as Geddes states that the loudpeakers account for 99% or 98% of distortion, or the vast majority of distortion since he didn't want to get nailed down to any numbers😉
One of the main points is not running speakers at levels that increase distortion above noise floor, which is what a lot of the small Sd low efficiency speakers do in most listening environments and at most listening levels. Everything is a compromise from the perfect point source doing all of the frequency spectrum.
Knowing what compromise makes you, or your client, happy without one form of "distortion" distracting or preventing you from connecting with the music is in my experience very subjective, and some distortion is actually necessary (e.g. not a huge fan of the almost perfectly measuring Benchmark Amps and systems for playback). So I determine distortion as that what gets in the way, although that is technically not really correct since there are many other factors involved e.g. in the time domain, even visual cues such as pumping speaker cones😉
The thing I tend to look for is not ever having a speaker, or amp for that matter strain, leaving enough "headroom" to be effortless goes a long way. High efficiency speakers, low Mms, 2-3x Wattage of power needed, excess Sd and minimal cone movement is what I have found to work best in general, but there are of course exceptions. The big issue is price and size and if you can compromise there. The best IMO are still the Western Electric Silbatone speakers you hear at the High End in Munich from the 1930s run off of 1W or 1/2W. But convince your wife to have those in house😉
Regarding the TAD, I assume the TAD 1601b's that must have been a cool project. You did not even like those compression drivers in that combo😉
TAD is one of those companies that just gets it right every time I go to a show or a recording studio, I expect them to once miss, they never do not ever, just one of those companies that know what they are doing, definitely the crown jewel of Pioneer, if they just weren't as pricey...
Cheers W
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A misleading statement. The total amount of distortion from any mechanical to electrical conversion will th ethe highest, distortion products from electronics can be much different in its nature, and more unnatural. A very small amount of that unnatural distortion can make itsef very evident even in th eprecence of much greater, more natural distortion.
Everything matters.
dave
At the listening levels it is not an issue. If you play loud enuff for it to be significant, i fear for the lon-term health of your hearing.
Loudspeakers are loaded with compromises. The set that is right is/are the ones YOU can most easily live with.
dave
I agree, good point, if you feed any unnatural (good term) distortion coming through your chain or from the source this will have a potentially far greater effect than even high speaker distortion. Jitter vs. vinyl noise, but at some point there also comes a point where the speaker distortion becomes an issue. Actually sometimes bad speaker distortion can mask some of the unnatural distortion, as well or multiply it which complicates things even more. This is also subjective and there are people more sensitive to one or the other, and dependent on music genre and preference for mp3s for expample
If you knew the systems we had to install for some oligarchs that had grown up with god knows what type of stereos/sound devices to get the sound they wanted.... Whatever makes you happy
So as usual it all depends, know what you need and where you are willing to compromise
Cheers
W
If you knew the systems we had to install for some oligarchs that had grown up with god knows what type of stereos/sound devices to get the sound they wanted.... Whatever makes you happy
So as usual it all depends, know what you need and where you are willing to compromise
Cheers
W
I don't know the amount of 6" plus 1" tweeter stand mounted speakers I heard in decent sized rooms, to get bass, especially if they were tuned to go low. People just turn up the volume because they want to feel bass and especially wtih cheap class D power or A/B there is no prolem. Well obviously for your ears there is😉 The abuse of drivers is an issue. Just the amount of drivers I had to replace for clients😉 agreed mostly due to kids parties or "demos", but that is another story.
Definitely a lot of distortion there and we were talking of the 6" Pensils before. I admit I have not heard them and how good they are at high spl. But the discussion was on bass from 6" vs. 6" plus 8" .
Actually I am curious what is the max cone extension on those to remain below 1% THD?
Cheers W
Definitely a lot of distortion there and we were talking of the 6" Pensils before. I admit I have not heard them and how good they are at high spl. But the discussion was on bass from 6" vs. 6" plus 8" .
Actually I am curious what is the max cone extension on those to remain below 1% THD?
Cheers W
I have found that this point is more often the amplifier running out of juice before the speaker really falls apart.
dave
A12/2p, or A12.
It is worth noting that the A12p needs to be pushed by the box to go as low as the smaller A10p or A10.3. It will move more air. It is still not a woofer, perhaps Jeff can comment on the bas sfrom his SUperPensils?
dave
dave
I'm inclined to point out that Geddes is not particularly interested in harmonic distortions. Other distortions, definitely.
Just regarding the thread topic, actively crossed speakers are susceptible to impedance variations with some amps.
No crossover can fix these things. You need to work them out with any kind of crossover.
Not knowing Geddes position on it I can chime in and say that Intermodulation Distortion is very perceptible in loudspeakers. The test signal used during an IMD test is much more similar to a musical signal. It also generates side bands that are non-harmonically related to the signal. So it’s more subjectively correlated than harmonic distortion. It’s rare to see IMD results published from manufacturers because there is no standard test method. However it’s fascinating what an IMD test can reveal.
At the end of the day, harmonic distortion and intermodulation distortion come from the same non-linearity so they are related. No doubt there's some level at which it will be a problem. Attaching Geddes opinion.
Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?
Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high spl, low distortion with a 2-way?