Hi -
I've built a few full range speakers and wanted to try my hand at something multi-way. I am using a 300B SET amp, and ideally want to build something that suits this well. Can someone point me in the right direction?
I listen to a lot of different music, but most of it is in the live music vs. electronic music realm. I ran a quick search but didn't see any builds. If multi-way just isnt the way to go with this amp, I get it, but if someone has done it well, I'd love to see some examples.
Best.
I've built a few full range speakers and wanted to try my hand at something multi-way. I am using a 300B SET amp, and ideally want to build something that suits this well. Can someone point me in the right direction?
I listen to a lot of different music, but most of it is in the live music vs. electronic music realm. I ran a quick search but didn't see any builds. If multi-way just isnt the way to go with this amp, I get it, but if someone has done it well, I'd love to see some examples.
Best.
As a starting point have a search through Troels Gravesen’s site to see if anything takes your fancy, his speakers based on the Jantzen 8008 would probably suit. You should be looking for higher sensitivity (90dB/W/m at least, ideally 93+) and a fairly even impedance curve and again a nominally 8 ohm would help. He uses an EAR861 valve amp as part of his listening.
DIY-Loudspeakers
Setting a budget will also help, as an example the Discovery 861 may just about do the job.
Just a few initial thoughts and there are plenty of other designs/designers out there to choose from with higher sensitivity speakers if you search.
DIY-Loudspeakers
Setting a budget will also help, as an example the Discovery 861 may just about do the job.
Just a few initial thoughts and there are plenty of other designs/designers out there to choose from with higher sensitivity speakers if you search.
Thanks! This is helpful.
What I'm going for here is some idea of what the different ranges are in terms of quality drivers in order to put together a budget. In the end all of my projects end up being multi-year things, so if it's 1000-2000 I'll probably jump right on it, and if it's 5000 + then I'll start putting things together and still probably do it over time.
Realistically I'd like to spend less than 1000 for each set of drivers. So for a 2 way speaker, about 2k in drivers.
That said, if there are price points where the quality just really starts jumping up, or really takes advantage of my amp and music style, I'd also like to understand a bit better.
What I'm going for here is some idea of what the different ranges are in terms of quality drivers in order to put together a budget. In the end all of my projects end up being multi-year things, so if it's 1000-2000 I'll probably jump right on it, and if it's 5000 + then I'll start putting things together and still probably do it over time.
Realistically I'd like to spend less than 1000 for each set of drivers. So for a 2 way speaker, about 2k in drivers.
That said, if there are price points where the quality just really starts jumping up, or really takes advantage of my amp and music style, I'd also like to understand a bit better.
One thought would be to use the 300B to just run the mids and highs in a 3way and then look to build a powered bass module, this removes the stress on the 300B and allows it to work where it does best. Again Troels has some option to read up on to get an idea of how they work (Loudspeaker II or Elipticor 2).
The other alternative, depending on your room, listening volume and type of music is to look at full range drivers, there is a whole forum on them one here, these can be quite efficient, a kind load on amps but do have a certain sound and getting deep bass is difficult, for an example search the Dallas model for the Fostex full range models or Planet10 for many other models.
The other alternative, depending on your room, listening volume and type of music is to look at full range drivers, there is a whole forum on them one here, these can be quite efficient, a kind load on amps but do have a certain sound and getting deep bass is difficult, for an example search the Dallas model for the Fostex full range models or Planet10 for many other models.
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I'm in a similar situation - been looking for an affordable 2 way speaker for my 6 watt EL34 amp. Unfortunately the JA8008 driver used in Troels designs sends the costs over my budget. Have been considering the much cheaper 2 Pi speakers, even though they are popular I'm a little hesitant about how the mids are going to sound with driver originally made for bass guitar amp/cabs. I know Tekton uses the same driver but I think they modify it, especially for the Reference Lore, apparently it has a more 'audiophile' sound than the standard Lore.
Just last night I was thinking of doing exactly what Ugg10 suggested - bi-wiring using my tube amp for the highs and my Class D for the lows as it has excellent bass. Unfortunately, with my 2-way speakers, the class D will be dealing with a lot the mids too. So I considered a full range like Ugg10 mentioned, with the Class D for a separate passive sub or two. At the moment I'm plugging the speaker cables between amps, at least twice a day depending on what music (& volume) I want to listen to, which isn't ideal.
Am always open to suggestions.
Just last night I was thinking of doing exactly what Ugg10 suggested - bi-wiring using my tube amp for the highs and my Class D for the lows as it has excellent bass. Unfortunately, with my 2-way speakers, the class D will be dealing with a lot the mids too. So I considered a full range like Ugg10 mentioned, with the Class D for a separate passive sub or two. At the moment I'm plugging the speaker cables between amps, at least twice a day depending on what music (& volume) I want to listen to, which isn't ideal.
Am always open to suggestions.
Greets!
300B SET/live music = Altec A5/A7 horn system or dual 15" sealed/BR + mids/HF horn or similar vintage 96+ dB/4 ft required to make them 'live or is it Memorex'. 😉
Plenty of cab plans/newer designs and Great Plains Audio makes new OEM ferrite and AlNiCo components with original factory dies, materials as EPA allows, etc., or there's modern variants available from several manufacturers with more power handling and probably cheaper too, though guessing not as efficient.
300B SET/live music = Altec A5/A7 horn system or dual 15" sealed/BR + mids/HF horn or similar vintage 96+ dB/4 ft required to make them 'live or is it Memorex'. 😉
Plenty of cab plans/newer designs and Great Plains Audio makes new OEM ferrite and AlNiCo components with original factory dies, materials as EPA allows, etc., or there's modern variants available from several manufacturers with more power handling and probably cheaper too, though guessing not as efficient.
This is a great recommend. A lot of cool plans on here. I just have to find something that fits the profile I need. Budgets aren't too bad. Any design anyone recommends in particular? Again, from what I'm seeing on his site, budget isn't too much of a concern.
Another bit of reading and a possibility may be the Open Source Monkey Box (or tower) as detailed on this forum. It is around 90dB/W/m but has a very friendly impedance curve and has been tested with an 11W tube amp successfully. This design uses one of the worlds best mid range 3" domes.
Write up here -
osmcdoc/osmc_paper.pdf at master * mbrennwa/osmcdoc * GitHub
thread for std design, 122 pages of it !! - Open Source Monkey Box
Tower version in development - Open Source Monkey Tower
IIRC the budget for these is around $3-4000 per pair.
Write up here -
osmcdoc/osmc_paper.pdf at master * mbrennwa/osmcdoc * GitHub
thread for std design, 122 pages of it !! - Open Source Monkey Box
Tower version in development - Open Source Monkey Tower
IIRC the budget for these is around $3-4000 per pair.
most tweeters will be efficient enough, the issue is finding a good midbass that fits the bill, even when using an active subwoofer with it's own amplifier.
Something like a 8" 95dB/2.83v/1m Beyma 8G40 could do it, combining it with a dome tweeter that is as efficient and fits your bill (maybe a SB Satori TW29). And there are more drivers like that. If you use a sub, the midbass does not have to go too low so it can be more sensitive, to fit your amp. But then a very efficient crossover that does not eat to much sensivity will be crucial.
You could also use a good coaxial driver, like the FaitalPRO 10HX230 or an B&C 12CXN88 wich are mostly also very efficient and with some tinkering in the crossover fit for hifi use.
Something like a 8" 95dB/2.83v/1m Beyma 8G40 could do it, combining it with a dome tweeter that is as efficient and fits your bill (maybe a SB Satori TW29). And there are more drivers like that. If you use a sub, the midbass does not have to go too low so it can be more sensitive, to fit your amp. But then a very efficient crossover that does not eat to much sensivity will be crucial.
You could also use a good coaxial driver, like the FaitalPRO 10HX230 or an B&C 12CXN88 wich are mostly also very efficient and with some tinkering in the crossover fit for hifi use.
Take a look at Troels Faital 3WC-15, sensitivity ~95-96db.
I am considering that as well for my SE.
I am considering that as well for my SE.
With a multi-way and a high Rout amplifier as your 300B SE is (VERY) likely to be you want to pay specific attention to the resulting impedance.
Your amplifier will prefer a flattish impedance curve, and the XOs in multi-ways often make that not the case.
dave
From the other replies:
The efficiency is likely less important than the impedance. I see sensitivity suggestions far in excess of what most people need in practise.
Unless you have a large room, or like to listen very loudly, something like a good 87-88 dB or so (with flat impedance) will likely need you not left wanting.
I did note the suggestion of bi-amping. Something i am a fan of. And suggests the a 2-way active WAW would be the direction i would be looking.
dave
The efficiency is likely less important than the impedance. I see sensitivity suggestions far in excess of what most people need in practise.
Unless you have a large room, or like to listen very loudly, something like a good 87-88 dB or so (with flat impedance) will likely need you not left wanting.
I did note the suggestion of bi-amping. Something i am a fan of. And suggests the a 2-way active WAW would be the direction i would be looking.
dave
Yes, I also think there should be some definition about what it means to have a speaker that goes with such an amp. Some of the traditional concerns are fixable, and we could make many speakers work well. On the other hand OP might be looking for a specific sound, and we could probably help there too.
I think really what I'm looking for is to expand beyond the full range into something maybe a little different. I listen to a lot of live or live studio music so soundstage is super important and I'm not sure I'm getting as much as I can get from my Alpairs matched to my amp.
For that amp, I really need probably something in the 8 ohm impedance range and 92+ db sensitivity. The troelsgraven options in the high efficiency range are pretty much the Jenzen models, which he doesn't seem all that jazzed about in his descriptions, or the Faital. But reading between the lines in his descriptions, the designs he prefers the best are probably lower efficiency than I want and also 4 ohm, like the SBA 16 and the SBA 761.
Also - I'm not an engineer or anything less, but I've got a full shop and electrical tools to match so I can build pretty much anything with a good set of instructions. Basic drawings are fine for woodwork, probably a bit more explanation when it comes to electrical, like crossovers. Never made one.
For that amp, I really need probably something in the 8 ohm impedance range and 92+ db sensitivity. The troelsgraven options in the high efficiency range are pretty much the Jenzen models, which he doesn't seem all that jazzed about in his descriptions, or the Faital. But reading between the lines in his descriptions, the designs he prefers the best are probably lower efficiency than I want and also 4 ohm, like the SBA 16 and the SBA 761.
Also - I'm not an engineer or anything less, but I've got a full shop and electrical tools to match so I can build pretty much anything with a good set of instructions. Basic drawings are fine for woodwork, probably a bit more explanation when it comes to electrical, like crossovers. Never made one.
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Ah - Dave! Always with the good info. If you were to put it baldly, is my amp just not suited toward a multi-way? I like my Alpairs alright, but they do feel sliiiightly more constricted at lower volumes than I would like. Was looking to retain a smaller overall package while adding some detail.
EDIT: You're also right about sensitivity. The sensitivity on the Alpairs in the Pensil box are pretty high, but I rarely ever take my volume over half, and usually that's too much.
One of the things that goes towards better imaging is lower reflected higher frequencies. Now full range systems have a benefit there, and if you come carelessly over to tweeters you might get a shock at the mess they are capable of creating when not used a certain way.
One of the preferred ways to handle this is to waveguide, using a compression tweeter. This also has the benefit of high efficiency for a lower powered amp, and can lead to a lower crossover frequency with its own benefits.
However, these speakers aren't usually done by beginners. We can fix things like impedance, and you'll probably spend time here working out details, but it may be very rewarding. Also, there aren't too many good larger waveguides available commercially, unless you plan to DIY a pair.
Therefore I'd suggest you consider an 8" pro high efficiency woofer, as it is a better match for some of the commercially available waveguides.
One of the preferred ways to handle this is to waveguide, using a compression tweeter. This also has the benefit of high efficiency for a lower powered amp, and can lead to a lower crossover frequency with its own benefits.
However, these speakers aren't usually done by beginners. We can fix things like impedance, and you'll probably spend time here working out details, but it may be very rewarding. Also, there aren't too many good larger waveguides available commercially, unless you plan to DIY a pair.
Therefore I'd suggest you consider an 8" pro high efficiency woofer, as it is a better match for some of the commercially available waveguides.
Hi,
Actually on the contrary, he only started building things with high efficiency with pro drivers a year or so ago and he is hooked on it. And he really likes it for the high dynamics he gets from using pro drivers.
Oon
Here you go -
Lom165_vPA-H | .Kartesian
T&S parameters
Fs : 52Hz
SPL : 92dB /2,8V /1m
Re : 7Ω
Qms : 12.2%
Qts : 0.261%
Bl : 9.8N/A
VAS : 17.37L
Mms : 11.2g
Sd : 121cm²
... maybe cross @ ~ 1.8K with Excel- T35C-002
Seas Excel T35C-002 35mm Mid-Tweeter
I just saw the data sheet for the 10HX230. Wow, very impressive driver. The mids and treble is effectively constant directivity.
I have some experience with pro drivers, the interesting thing is, the box can tuned quite a bit below Fs compared to a typical mid bass from the hifi side, where the box is normally tuned above Fs ....
I have a essentially a Eminence 8CX with a B&C DE10. I just put in a 1uF cap on the tweeter to cross. I know it, that is not a proper crossover. But it really sounds quite good. I'll take my omnimic and measure it when I have the time..
My thoughts are if you are going down the pro sound route, might as well make it a Coaxial....
Oon