The 2408H has the BMS style phase plug, while the 2408H-1 has the D2430K style phase plug as Patrick explained in another post.
For a scaled down M2 inspired concept, I suggest:
Buy an M2 waveguide and cut it smaller like one of the DIY examples on Audioheritage forum. Then use a good 12" woofer and a BMS 4555 1.5" driver crossed over at 1000 - 1100Hz.
The M2 waveguide has a wider coverage than most - you won't easily find another waveguide or horn that mimics it.
Buy an M2 waveguide and cut it smaller like one of the DIY examples on Audioheritage forum. Then use a good 12" woofer and a BMS 4555 1.5" driver crossed over at 1000 - 1100Hz.
The M2 waveguide has a wider coverage than most - you won't easily find another waveguide or horn that mimics it.
Hi,
I have not had a look at the whole thread...
Some talk about a 12" and the M2 2216Nd is a 15" driver : does a 12" a better choice because of the upper midrange XO (around 700/800 Hz I assume?)
What about Faital Pro vs JBL for the price ? Faital is far of such a driver quality like the 2216Nd ? (now with rubber surrounds?)
@ OP : here a member called "pos", made a clone of the M2 and the filter for a MiniDSP digital active crossover but also the analog filter which can be founded in the Lansing Heritage forum (many thread about the M2) iirc.
I have not had a look at the whole thread...
Some talk about a 12" and the M2 2216Nd is a 15" driver : does a 12" a better choice because of the upper midrange XO (around 700/800 Hz I assume?)
What about Faital Pro vs JBL for the price ? Faital is far of such a driver quality like the 2216Nd ? (now with rubber surrounds?)
@ OP : here a member called "pos", made a clone of the M2 and the filter for a MiniDSP digital active crossover but also the analog filter which can be founded in the Lansing Heritage forum (many thread about the M2) iirc.
There is an even newer version of the 2216nd available:
JBL 2216ND-1 Woofer for 4367 #320-0045-002 - Speaker Exchange
It does also have an accordeon surround. Its parameters are even a little more "hi-fi-ish" than the other version of the 2216. It is used in a studio monitor inspired hi-fi speaker. It is definitley not cheap at USD 585 but it is cheaper than some other well-regarded 15" and 16" like TAD for instance.
Regards
Charles
JBL 2216ND-1 Woofer for 4367 #320-0045-002 - Speaker Exchange
It does also have an accordeon surround. Its parameters are even a little more "hi-fi-ish" than the other version of the 2216. It is used in a studio monitor inspired hi-fi speaker. It is definitley not cheap at USD 585 but it is cheaper than some other well-regarded 15" and 16" like TAD for instance.
Regards
Charles
Someone mentioned Faital within this thread. They have two new 12" drivers that could be used for this style of speaker. Unfortunately neither one has any feature like shorting rings etc. And no one has heard them yet, I guess. One of them has a rubber surround and is targeted at applications that are leaning towards Hifi and the other one has an accordeon surround and is intended for bass-guitar and keyboard. Both have an EBP of 108, making them suitable for power HiFi use.
There is just one thing that bothers me apart form the lack of shorting rings: The H U G E dustcaps compared to the whimpy voice-coil diameters behind them.
FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 12RS550
FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 12PR320
Regards
Charles
There is just one thing that bothers me apart form the lack of shorting rings: The H U G E dustcaps compared to the whimpy voice-coil diameters behind them.
FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 12RS550
FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 12PR320
Regards
Charles
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That's correct.
The D2430K received all the fanfare, but the 2408H-1 was designed by the same person, and it's features are also detailed in the JBL patent.
To me, the thing that's special about it is the phase plug. It is explicitly designed to randomize the pathlengths, with the aim of eliminating peaks and dips in the frequency response that are caused by symmetry.
The 2408h-1 is basically a smaller and cheaper version of the D2430K-1, but with a single diaphragm, not dual.
Here's the polar response of the 2408H-1 on a clone of JBL's PT waveguide. (I measured this.) To me, these polars are quite spectacular. The response stays consistent and even across the entire beamwidth. In particular, note how the pattern is even all the way to 20khz. (Most compression drivers lose pattern control when the wavelengths are smaller than their throat.)
Another "neat" thing about the polars is that they could get even better. This is because DSP could be used to make the response ruler-flat. The reason why is because the response shape is so consistent.
By far, the main fault of the 2408H-1 is the stupid threads. That really limits your waveguide options. It also makes it difficult for me to 3D print a waveguide for it.
In summary: the D2430K will play louder and has a wider bandwidth. But it also costs $1000 for a used pair. New units are not for sale AFAIK. The 2408H-1 offers VERY good polars on readily available waveguides. It's ultra high frequency performance is demonstrably superior to the competition. Relatively speaking, it's a bargain that nobody seems to be using.
For more info, check out my post history, I've dissected and 3D printed the phase plug.
That's correct.
The D2430K received all the fanfare, but the 2408H-1 was designed by the same person, and it's features are also detailed in the JBL patent.
To me, the thing that's special about it is the phase plug. It is explicitly designed to randomize the pathlengths, with the aim of eliminating peaks and dips in the frequency response that are caused by symmetry.
The 2408h-1 is basically a smaller and cheaper version of the D2430K-1, but with a single diaphragm, not dual.
Here's the polar response of the 2408H-1 on a clone of JBL's PT waveguide. (I measured this.) To me, these polars are quite spectacular. The response stays consistent and even across the entire beamwidth. In particular, note how the pattern is even all the way to 20khz. (Most compression drivers lose pattern control when the wavelengths are smaller than their throat.)
Another "neat" thing about the polars is that they could get even better. This is because DSP could be used to make the response ruler-flat. The reason why is because the response shape is so consistent.
By far, the main fault of the 2408H-1 is the stupid threads. That really limits your waveguide options. It also makes it difficult for me to 3D print a waveguide for it.
In summary: the D2430K will play louder and has a wider bandwidth. But it also costs $1000 for a used pair. New units are not for sale AFAIK. The 2408H-1 offers VERY good polars on readily available waveguides. It's ultra high frequency performance is demonstrably superior to the competition. Relatively speaking, it's a bargain that nobody seems to be using.
For more info, check out my post history, I've dissected and 3D printed the phase plug.
That of axis response looks extremely good. But the frequency response looks far from flat...a 15dB difference from 2k to 15k? How does one tame that without a DSP?
I am now leaning towards using the BMS 4550. It seems to have the lowest crossover point (bms claims 800hz) and has good extension.
Would the BMS 4550 combine well with the eminence delta 15fla ?
Would the BMS 4550 combine well with the eminence delta 15fla ?
It is a lot louder than the woofer, to reduce the level a voltage divider is needed. Parallel to the VD use a bypass capacitor.
I would not recommend to cross over the 4550 that low, aim for above 1kHz.
No, because the delta 15lfa is still a subwoofer and not a bass-mid driver. Forget the delta for any 2-way setup.
On the data-sheet of this woofer it sais:
"Recommended for professional audio as a mid-bass or floor monitor in a sealed enclosure. Also suitable as a woofer in vented, bass guitar or PA enclosures."
I doesn't say Subwoofer at all. But I agree that one would need a horn/driver combo that can be crossed quite low. And the box would be quite large if one wants to go low. Apart from that I have never heard it and can't comment on its subjective quality.
I am currently using some drivers that are also sold as PA subs in a two way speaker and they sound great IMHO.
Regards
Charles
"Recommended for professional audio as a mid-bass or floor monitor in a sealed enclosure. Also suitable as a woofer in vented, bass guitar or PA enclosures."
I doesn't say Subwoofer at all. But I agree that one would need a horn/driver combo that can be crossed quite low. And the box would be quite large if one wants to go low. Apart from that I have never heard it and can't comment on its subjective quality.
I am currently using some drivers that are also sold as PA subs in a two way speaker and they sound great IMHO.
Regards
Charles
May I suggest the op to look at the Tempest 12 from Jeff Bagby ?
A lot of advantages if you live near North America : cheap, passive crossover designed for the off axis patern between the direct driver and the controlled directivity horn + its compression driver ! Front bafle CNCed can be purchased as well (flat pack) !
Now all is about the room dimension of the poster ! If less than 30 or 40 square meters room, I will go towards Something little for a better room integration like its Fusion 8" alchemy or even towards an other design with coax driver : Volt-8 or 10 !
Fusion-12 DIY Sound Group
save the time & money for DAC interest instead: the speaker only see what you inject to it. Anyway, take care of the combo speaker size/room size !
my 2 cents
regards
A lot of advantages if you live near North America : cheap, passive crossover designed for the off axis patern between the direct driver and the controlled directivity horn + its compression driver ! Front bafle CNCed can be purchased as well (flat pack) !
Now all is about the room dimension of the poster ! If less than 30 or 40 square meters room, I will go towards Something little for a better room integration like its Fusion 8" alchemy or even towards an other design with coax driver : Volt-8 or 10 !
Fusion-12 DIY Sound Group
save the time & money for DAC interest instead: the speaker only see what you inject to it. Anyway, take care of the combo speaker size/room size !
my 2 cents
regards
Thanks for all the suggestions. I am starting to realize that the JBL reference monitor is expensive for a reason. Trying to get even 80% of its performance requires sourcing expensive drivers. I am not yet ready to sink that much cash in a uncertain outcome.
Getting the same result with a 3 way design seems a lot cheaper. Thinking about building a 3 way system around the amazing value Peerless by Tymphany TC9FD18-08 3-1/2" with a woofer and a super tweeter.
Instead of a large woofer I am considering using two Peerless by Tymphany SDS-160F25PR01-08 6-1/2" and make it a 3.5 way WTMW
For the tweeter something like the Peerless by Tymphany XT25SC90-04 1" Dual Ring Radiator Tweeter. Can I use a wave guide for a soft dome tweeter? The of axis response of this tweeter without wave guide seems rather poor. But on axis it seems dead flat way past 20khz.
Crossover points 250hz and 3600hz
This is just a rough idea. Please feel free to give constructive feedback or to tear this idea apart. I rely on feedback to prevent me from doing something really stupid.
But this is a low risk build...total cost for the drivers is around 140$ for the pair.
Any other suggestions for budget woofers/tweeters for a killer low cost three way with the TC9FD18-08 3-1/2" as a mid?
Getting the same result with a 3 way design seems a lot cheaper. Thinking about building a 3 way system around the amazing value Peerless by Tymphany TC9FD18-08 3-1/2" with a woofer and a super tweeter.
Instead of a large woofer I am considering using two Peerless by Tymphany SDS-160F25PR01-08 6-1/2" and make it a 3.5 way WTMW
For the tweeter something like the Peerless by Tymphany XT25SC90-04 1" Dual Ring Radiator Tweeter. Can I use a wave guide for a soft dome tweeter? The of axis response of this tweeter without wave guide seems rather poor. But on axis it seems dead flat way past 20khz.
Crossover points 250hz and 3600hz
This is just a rough idea. Please feel free to give constructive feedback or to tear this idea apart. I rely on feedback to prevent me from doing something really stupid.
But this is a low risk build...total cost for the drivers is around 140$ for the pair.
Any other suggestions for budget woofers/tweeters for a killer low cost three way with the TC9FD18-08 3-1/2" as a mid?
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Yep, I think your are true : M2 is not a cheap speaker : good drivers, clever horn, etc ! And it needs a lot of power despite its good efficienty, so without a good monster amp, forget it (or choose the MiniDSP way for bi-amp) ! It can be a nice project (see what they dif at the ALtec lansing heritage thread : very good group job), all is about your way to see your hobby : some prefer spend more but not often for a good stuff and I believe it is, view all the buzz around this speaker, but some prefer build a lot many little projects to spend time (it's a hobby also !) : see your wallet, goals and decide 🙂
You may consider also what Bwalso made with its little synergy cabinet : clever design, imho good enough for 95% of our needs, just ask a little more hand skill ! Designed to be near the wall and WAF certified !
Talking about the drivers you point out : they are excellent : you may also have a look at what Pano member made with it in an OB design : cheap, reliable, very good testimonials as well (but as usual : all speakers have needs with rooms : OB needs more space and to be a little far from the wall as you may already know). With this last I will take the all Tymphany driver version and further go for a Minidsp with D-amp integration with exactly the same woof but with an OB Bass cabinet if needed : Jazzman's DIY Electrostatic Loudspeaker Page: Ripole Subwoofers:.
The two last will be certainly nearer to your wisch of Something near Full range listening experience.... All is about trade off, time & money, rooms, listening needs !
There are tons of possible answers... If cost is the first item on your list, imho you may not be disapointed by Pano's OB or Bagby's Alchemy-8, Bawslo's little synergy is above your budget and maybe also the Tempest because the cabinet (but not so far...)
You may consider also what Bwalso made with its little synergy cabinet : clever design, imho good enough for 95% of our needs, just ask a little more hand skill ! Designed to be near the wall and WAF certified !
Talking about the drivers you point out : they are excellent : you may also have a look at what Pano member made with it in an OB design : cheap, reliable, very good testimonials as well (but as usual : all speakers have needs with rooms : OB needs more space and to be a little far from the wall as you may already know). With this last I will take the all Tymphany driver version and further go for a Minidsp with D-amp integration with exactly the same woof but with an OB Bass cabinet if needed : Jazzman's DIY Electrostatic Loudspeaker Page: Ripole Subwoofers:.
The two last will be certainly nearer to your wisch of Something near Full range listening experience.... All is about trade off, time & money, rooms, listening needs !
There are tons of possible answers... If cost is the first item on your list, imho you may not be disapointed by Pano's OB or Bagby's Alchemy-8, Bawslo's little synergy is above your budget and maybe also the Tempest because the cabinet (but not so far...)
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This had been the reason why I ended up buying commercial speakers instead of DIY at the end of the story. I have more confidence these days and started gathering parts for my first DIY speakers. 🙂
If your final goal is still something like M2, I would like to suggest to build 15" boxes and put small fullrange OB over it. Then you can exchange top parts with horn+drivers in the future, and you can still use fullrange as second speakers.
15" is a classic, so once you have 15", you will have so many choices later. 🙂
It says 15LF, LF stands for low frequency. I don't know any top or 2 way with the delta 15LF. It is indeed a subwoofer chassis, with the big resonance at 600Hz you won't be happy with anything else. If you want something 2-way, you'd get much better sound with the delta 15.
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