That's exactly right. If you're looking to save money on a single set of speakers, buy used or a well documented and attested kit. Woodworkers will probably rather lavish their time, skill and money on constructing a kit or well known Internet design.
Audio diy'ers that are into Electronics may want to assemble the parts and purchase a prebuilt cabinet or have one constructed by a friend with a shop.
Then you get the idiots with no life, that scrounge drivers, buy close outs and generally refuse to let anyone else have any input into the design of their "masterpiece". They spend their life dreaming of new combinations of drivers (usually what they have on hand) and crossovers that "may" allow the whole mess to somehow, miracle of miracles, actually sound OK. I know one such individual that fits this description, but I'd rather not dwell on it.
Finally there are the intelligent people, who like the other Terry (great name, BTW) will use a reasoned approach, build one speaker at a time, finding what works and what doesn't. As they become more involved in the hobby they buy measuring equipment, learn to use it and step by step become experts.
Warning!!!
These guys are a detriment to the hobby, as they soon eclipse the poor idiot that, like a miser, continually hovers over his hoard of precious drivers. In this New World of Political Correctness, we can state with perfect reasoning that these "experts" may eventually cause our Audio Miser to lose self-esteem. As it is now legitimate to expect equal outcomes, the "expert" must forfeit his measuring gear, undergo a lobotomy and stick with generic crossovers! As you can readily see, anything less wouldn't be fair.
They must be stopped before it's too....
Uh, I've got to go, my wife says I must take my medication immediately...or else!
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ROFL. My pet hate is when people ask, what is the best woofer/mid/tweeter. When using drivers, generally we use them together, ie 2 way, 3 way etc. One must realise that these drivers have to work together, and for a part of their range they are working symbioticaly. It is like a marriage. You wouldn't put Governor Arnie with Dolly Parton! Dolly would break! Like wise drivers have to get on with each other and thus the relationship of drivers is just as important as the drivers themselves. The three most important steps in creating a good two way speaker is
Driver selection (Woofer)
Driver selection (Tweeter) and
Driver selection (how they get along)
Terry
Driver selection (Woofer)
Driver selection (Tweeter) and
Driver selection (how they get along)
Terry
for those that don't know...
the manufacturers' actual cost of manufacturing (if they are to stay in business long) is approximately 10%. So a $7k system should cost around $700 to make, if you can buy at the same scale as a manufacturer. About the same for R&D and advertising. That would allow a typical manufacturer about the same for "profit" to cover operating costs.
If there is a marketing firm or distribution company, they need money for shipping, advertising, and some profit.
So then the retailer needs an opportunity to make some money too, and they need about 30% or so to have a storefront. Now if internet based, the model gets mixed up, that's why AV123, etc can sell for less than more "commercial" concerns.
DIY represents a way, and the means to a personal knowledge base. But give some their due. X-overs can be difficult to get right and can take many iterations to get right.
the manufacturers' actual cost of manufacturing (if they are to stay in business long) is approximately 10%. So a $7k system should cost around $700 to make, if you can buy at the same scale as a manufacturer. About the same for R&D and advertising. That would allow a typical manufacturer about the same for "profit" to cover operating costs.
If there is a marketing firm or distribution company, they need money for shipping, advertising, and some profit.
So then the retailer needs an opportunity to make some money too, and they need about 30% or so to have a storefront. Now if internet based, the model gets mixed up, that's why AV123, etc can sell for less than more "commercial" concerns.
DIY represents a way, and the means to a personal knowledge base. But give some their due. X-overs can be difficult to get right and can take many iterations to get right.
For high end speakers, the ratio is probably 10X.
I am building a pair of 3 ways, where the driver cost is $5K. That includes half the drivers being bought at trade through a friend.
I expect that my cabinet, Xover, and wiring costs will come to another $3K+.
I will also ellicit some help in building, testing and measuring these, which will probably cost me another $1.5K.
I expect that if these were available commercially that they would cost a lot more that $40K.
The positive motivation for me is that I get to build a speaker that completely fits my priorities, and is the best that I can do within a budget that would only buy me something quite ordinary (to me
)
Well I don't think you should really compare on the 500 dollar range. Around that area I would be comparing to 100 dollar speakers personally but the more expensive and "no compromise" the commercial reference is the more you can start comparing cost factors. But on say some small bookshelf monitors I seriously doubt that DIYers can beat some of the entry levels with cost factor involved.
Well, I hear a lot of theorizing as to why DIY designs may or may not sound better than a commercial design of specified price...
but has anyone ACTUALLY compared their DIY designs to a commercial product? That's kind of what I was originally asking. I think most of us already know the theoretically advantages and disadvantages of DIY.
but has anyone ACTUALLY compared their DIY designs to a commercial product? That's kind of what I was originally asking. I think most of us already know the theoretically advantages and disadvantages of DIY.
There was a blind listening test done by the Audiophile Society of Western Australia quite some years ago. They wanted to choose a reference speaker for themselves. Three commercial speakers were tested and for a bit of a lark they added a much cheaper kit sold by Jarcar, the JV60.
The JV60 won!.
I can't find all the details, but it does answer the question.
Terry
a comparison...
do a search regarding "clones" etc. I think many have shown you can clone a speaker...but that does negate the engineering portion if it is a true clone---exact.
Now if a DIY (designed and built) vs. commercial comparison is done, then I am not sure that it would be as easy in terms of exact performance. The crossovers are they big difference. Now if a custom High efficiency speaker is built, then with minimal crossovers (or none), then the difference would be minimal. These costs should be significantly lower in terms of actual dollars spent.
Examples that may be considered for DIY vs Commercial are the DO designed "Basszilla" vs a similar commercial product voiced similarly. Well enough documented. Or some of the SL designed loudspeakers (Linkwitz Labs) vs one of SL's commercial designs...
These would certainly be a somewhat fair comparison. Particularly SL's commercial vs DIY types
I've heard the Basszillas at some length and can say they are excellent loudspeakers. About CAD$3000 to build using Lowthers
And please don't get me wrong. I do believe for the $$$'s spent the DIY will win .
do a search regarding "clones" etc. I think many have shown you can clone a speaker...but that does negate the engineering portion if it is a true clone---exact.
Now if a DIY (designed and built) vs. commercial comparison is done, then I am not sure that it would be as easy in terms of exact performance. The crossovers are they big difference. Now if a custom High efficiency speaker is built, then with minimal crossovers (or none), then the difference would be minimal. These costs should be significantly lower in terms of actual dollars spent.
Examples that may be considered for DIY vs Commercial are the DO designed "Basszilla" vs a similar commercial product voiced similarly. Well enough documented. Or some of the SL designed loudspeakers (Linkwitz Labs) vs one of SL's commercial designs...
These would certainly be a somewhat fair comparison. Particularly SL's commercial vs DIY types
I've heard the Basszillas at some length and can say they are excellent loudspeakers. About CAD$3000 to build using Lowthers
And please don't get me wrong. I do believe for the $$$'s spent the DIY will win .
Or with DIY you create speaker what happens to come, buying commercial you could choose best by auditioning.
You can ask for all the subjective opinion in the world but it doesn't mean squat. If you still think subjective opinion is meaninful then I already posted that I do buy commercial designs to compare against my DIY designs and ZERO commercial designs will beat comparable DIY designs.
No one theorized either, they simply posted common sense facts. Its a simple fact that DIY has zero time costs, zero IP costs, zero overhead costs and therefore DIY speakers have the performance of commercial designs 3 to 5 times their price tag.
What you should do is find out the TRUE cost of building a DIY speaker
Do a ROI analysis....Include X$/hr, include depreciation costs of equipment used, included other minor overhead cost, figure out a margin so that X speakers sold will break even etc. You will then realize that buying $400 in parts/supplies will end up creating possibly a $2000+ setup of speakers.
None of that is theory, its just numbers and business sense. Do you run a business?
Nelson Pass represents commercial products. He puts as much (or more) attention and care into his products as DIY folks. I've built some Pass amplifiers, but my DIY jobs don't have the fit-and-finish as his commercial products. You get what you pay for. You can't dismiss commercial products in favor of DIY.
Obviously, DIY blows away the big-box companies. It's the companies like Pass and Firstwatt that offer tremendous value.
Obviously, DIY blows away the big-box companies. It's the companies like Pass and Firstwatt that offer tremendous value.
Pass builds speakers?
Electronics is a whole new ball game (This is a speaker forum too) and I have to disagree that pass or firstwatt offer true value in terms of performance/$$$ considering the price tag of their equipment.
You can ask for all the subjective opinion in the world but it doesn't mean squat. If you still think subjective opinion is meaninful then I already posted that I do buy commercial designs to compare against my DIY designs and ZERO commercial designs will beat comparable DIY designs.
No one theorized either, they simply posted common sense facts. Its a simple fact that DIY has zero time costs, zero IP costs, zero overhead costs and therefore DIY speakers have the performance of commercial designs 3 to 5 times their price tag.
What you should do is find out the TRUE cost of building a DIY speaker
You will then realize that buying $400 in parts/supplies will end up creating possibly a $2000+ setup of speakers.
None of that is theory, its just numbers and business sense. Do you run a business?
No offense, but providing reasons why something should be true is THEORIZING. Obviously, due to reasons that I and others have pointed out, it is POSSIBLE to build DIY loudspeakers that outperform commercial designs that cost more. However, how easy this is to do, and how often this occurs, I am a little skeptical.
In fact, if it were so easy to build a DIY speaker that outperformed a similarly priced commercial design, I would have expected tons of responses so far! Instead, other than my own, there have been none - instead, people have just been theorizing as to WHY a DIY speaker should outperform a commercial design, but nobody has truly verified this.
DIY has other costs as well. If you're like many people, you don't have cabinetry skills, so you have to outsource the cabinet construction and finishing. That easily runs $500-$1000. You also need to invest in a calibrated mic and measurement equipment/software - add another $200-$500. And remember, commercial companies buy their raw drivers much cheaper than you can buy them for at Madisound, for instance. So if you paid $1000 for drivers, the company may have paid less than $500, and they can have them custom modified too. Companies that manufacture their own drivers save even more. And finally, how much is your time worth? If you're an 8 year old with a newspaper route, it's not worth much. But what if you're not.
Its not theorizing when there is data to back it up. You can simply look at measurements if you want the data to show what perfoms better everything else will be is just subjective evaluation.
This is an old arguement, its as old as DIY itself actually. If you do not want to DIY speakers then don't if you do want to then enjoy the experience. If someone wants to just build ONE set of speakers then a popular kit (Zaph kits on Madisound) or following detailed instructions (Ie. Holtz's Statements) are perfect for beating ANY speaker in the same price range and category!
Its not a theory that people doing DIY do not add time costs, equipment costs or IP costs into their projects.
How much is my time? depending on the business contract its ranges from $70/hr to $150/hr so I would be foolish to put a $$$ figure on my time spent on ANY hobby. DIY is simply a fun time to escape the grind of day to day life and its cheaper then my old hobby of gambling
Heck, I waste 1/2 my days online when I could make an extra $1000 here and there.....its all a matter of choice and 10 years ago everything to me was $$$/hour...I have relaxed and realized that not everything is $$$, I also enjoy the education behind building speakers. Learning something is priceless.
This is an old arguement, its as old as DIY itself actually. If you do not want to DIY speakers then don't if you do want to then enjoy the experience. If someone wants to just build ONE set of speakers then a popular kit (Zaph kits on Madisound) or following detailed instructions (Ie. Holtz's Statements) are perfect for beating ANY speaker in the same price range and category!
Its not a theory that people doing DIY do not add time costs, equipment costs or IP costs into their projects.
How much is my time? depending on the business contract its ranges from $70/hr to $150/hr so I would be foolish to put a $$$ figure on my time spent on ANY hobby. DIY is simply a fun time to escape the grind of day to day life and its cheaper then my old hobby of gambling
Heck, I waste 1/2 my days online when I could make an extra $1000 here and there.....its all a matter of choice and 10 years ago everything to me was $$$/hour...I have relaxed and realized that not everything is $$$, I also enjoy the education behind building speakers. Learning something is priceless.
List all the members from HTGuide.com, AVSForums.com, ExpressTalk.com, DIYaudio.com, AudioKarma.com....and so on that have went back to comercial from DIY?
The percentages are extremely low so I would say DIY has a very good track record.
Its cool to be skeptical, this audio hobby needs more of it but if you spend enough time on ALL these forums you will realize how much success DIYers have.
In the end I do believe its all about the Joy of building and measuring that is the key to success in DIY. Without that passion DIY isn't going to have the impact.
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