Mhhh... Let me see if I understand this:
- you published a diy project on a diyer forum (whom philosophy is to share experiences and knowledge) with no diagram, no gerber files etc;
- you are selling your project (thru a company called RTX) for 2600€, so essentially you are using this forum to promote your business;
- there is no dedicated software, so you did no investment in software/firmware/apps;
- I took a look to the photos...your interface seems more inspired to an AK application note than to a real measurement instrument. For example: did you really use NI "simple switcher" voltage regulators in an instrumentation device ? OMG ...
- the pricing of BOM, in my opinion and following my experience, should not exceed 250€, so the selling price is 5...8 times BOM + labour cost;
- For 5K€ you can buy an Audio Precision unit, so....forum guests, think twice, better to wait and save !
- I'm a little tight on budget, so I will spend much less - to be precise, 449$ ;-) for a better (and more resalable) unit
- you published a diy project on a diyer forum (whom philosophy is to share experiences and knowledge) with no diagram, no gerber files etc;
- you are selling your project (thru a company called RTX) for 2600€, so essentially you are using this forum to promote your business;
- there is no dedicated software, so you did no investment in software/firmware/apps;
- I took a look to the photos...your interface seems more inspired to an AK application note than to a real measurement instrument. For example: did you really use NI "simple switcher" voltage regulators in an instrumentation device ? OMG ...
- the pricing of BOM, in my opinion and following my experience, should not exceed 250€, so the selling price is 5...8 times BOM + labour cost;
- For 5K€ you can buy an Audio Precision unit, so....forum guests, think twice, better to wait and save !
- I'm a little tight on budget, so I will spend much less - to be precise, 449$ ;-) for a better (and more resalable) unit
You most certainly do not understand this. At all.
The group buy is long closed, so you missed out and would have to pay full price for the commercial product.
I don’t think you understand the amount of care and work that’s gone into this device. I long planned to build my own, until I started it and decided it wasn’t worth the time.
If you just read, all your questions would have been answered. No need to post because you don’t like the price tag.
@acg Beg your pardon ?
The group buy spent 1K€ for a diy project, which is a lot in my opinion. But this is not the point.
Is this an audio enthusiast forum, or a "save on advertising on your commercial product" forum ?
In my opinion the right approach to this kind of project would be another: Make schematics and gerber files available to diy users, AND (eventually) offer a built board (or a kit) to people with less experience/time.
If you want to promote yourself and to sell "closed-source" products there are other places.
The group buy spent 1K€ for a diy project, which is a lot in my opinion. But this is not the point.
Is this an audio enthusiast forum, or a "save on advertising on your commercial product" forum ?
In my opinion the right approach to this kind of project would be another: Make schematics and gerber files available to diy users, AND (eventually) offer a built board (or a kit) to people with less experience/time.
If you want to promote yourself and to sell "closed-source" products there are other places.
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This wasn’t a community design and all rules were followed as far as I know. You’re years too late at this point, you can take your complaints elsewhere. Maybe the thread title is slightly misleading now since it’s not DIY, but that’s it.
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@soongsc: yes I cannot judge this product as a DIYer because I have no diagram and/or BOM (and I don't have it in my setup, thing that will not happen).
I could only look at specs and diagrams (as a normal, commercial product), and I think I found a better product for 1/5 the price, with proprietary software, automation APIs....
About using this thing as an USB audio DAC ....I don't like USB DACs (I use an Apollo with thunderbird interface, or an I2S DAC), and won't certainly spend 2600€ for a product with no reputation (and a little too ugly to put it in you listening room !).
I didn't mean to be rude, just pointed out that
- this is NOT a DoItYourself project, it' a DidItForSell project, from the first moment, the author never shared hardware details;
- to me pricing is exaggerated (price is what customers are willing to pay, anyway);
- as this IS a commercial product everybody should be free to compare it with others products in terms of quality and pricing, no preconceptions
I could only look at specs and diagrams (as a normal, commercial product), and I think I found a better product for 1/5 the price, with proprietary software, automation APIs....
About using this thing as an USB audio DAC ....I don't like USB DACs (I use an Apollo with thunderbird interface, or an I2S DAC), and won't certainly spend 2600€ for a product with no reputation (and a little too ugly to put it in you listening room !).
I didn't mean to be rude, just pointed out that
- this is NOT a DoItYourself project, it' a DidItForSell project, from the first moment, the author never shared hardware details;
- to me pricing is exaggerated (price is what customers are willing to pay, anyway);
- as this IS a commercial product everybody should be free to compare it with others products in terms of quality and pricing, no preconceptions
So go ahead and do your own evaluation, no need to complain here. I have listened to audio equipment many times more expensive than this. If you fine something of better value. Feel free to share in another thread under the topic you feel appropriate. Let the moderators decide if this thread is appropriate or not.
@pbisiac
The project did start as a hobby project, therefore the term DIY is used. I started sometime in 2011/2012, making various test PCB's. At my own cost and assembled by hand.
When the different parts came together and the performance looked very promising, the idea of making it into a product started to emerge. But that was years later.
As mentioned previously, I don't think that this product would be suitable for delivery as a bare PCB, with everyone assembling the product by hand. I have a deep respect for members of this forum, but I think that many members would never be able to finish the assembly with the amount of components used and the testing required. I even had to do some troubleshooting/replacements/sorting due to a specific critical component, which did not meet the specs (far from it in fact).
At low quantities the components would be rather expensive. A lot of resistors are high precision types, which would be costly if you only buy a few of them.
So it was actually the intention to do members of this forum a favor, by delivering a manufactured, tested and calibrated product. I managed to persuade (yes, it was a hard persuasion) RTX to handle the manufacturing. RTX did the firmware development for the XMOS USB interface, helped on the mechanical design and handled the production setup.
So RTX obviously got a huge profit from this, right? In fact RTX has not earned one cent from this project. On the contrary, the development cost + production cost outweighs the income from sales of the RTX6001.
If you can manufacture it for me at a BOM of 250€ + e.g. 20% labor cost, we have a deal! The problem is that it just isn't possible.
Okay, so I made all the profit then? Wrong again. I haven't made one cent on this. But I have had rather large expenses on PCB's, components and test equipment. Oh, and by the way, I probably have spent more than one man-year on this project in my spare time. Why? Because I found it would be an interesting challenge and I hoped to be able to help others on this forum getting access to a very good audio analyzer.
I would like to see the "better unit" you can get for USD 449. I suspect you mean the QA401. A nice product, but nowhere near in terms of performance. You may like the combination of software and hardware and that is fair enough. I preferred to use an open standard (ASIO) and let users pick the software that suits their needs and budget.
Once you get your QA401 I think you should test it by connecting a 100 Vrms signal to the input. I am pretty sure that after this test, you would need a new one!
A lot of effort went into the design of the input stage, which has very low noise and distortion and still provide protection against high voltages. If I am not mistaken, the input noise is even lower than on the best AP's you can get!
I tend to agree with acg and NicMac (and other members giving their support):
I would like to say a big thanks for all the positive comments from customers and other members on this forum. Without you guys, I would just stop working on the analyzer. And yes, I am looking into a number of additions and improvements.
The project did start as a hobby project, therefore the term DIY is used. I started sometime in 2011/2012, making various test PCB's. At my own cost and assembled by hand.
When the different parts came together and the performance looked very promising, the idea of making it into a product started to emerge. But that was years later.
As mentioned previously, I don't think that this product would be suitable for delivery as a bare PCB, with everyone assembling the product by hand. I have a deep respect for members of this forum, but I think that many members would never be able to finish the assembly with the amount of components used and the testing required. I even had to do some troubleshooting/replacements/sorting due to a specific critical component, which did not meet the specs (far from it in fact).
At low quantities the components would be rather expensive. A lot of resistors are high precision types, which would be costly if you only buy a few of them.
So it was actually the intention to do members of this forum a favor, by delivering a manufactured, tested and calibrated product. I managed to persuade (yes, it was a hard persuasion) RTX to handle the manufacturing. RTX did the firmware development for the XMOS USB interface, helped on the mechanical design and handled the production setup.
So RTX obviously got a huge profit from this, right? In fact RTX has not earned one cent from this project. On the contrary, the development cost + production cost outweighs the income from sales of the RTX6001.
If you can manufacture it for me at a BOM of 250€ + e.g. 20% labor cost, we have a deal! The problem is that it just isn't possible.
Okay, so I made all the profit then? Wrong again. I haven't made one cent on this. But I have had rather large expenses on PCB's, components and test equipment. Oh, and by the way, I probably have spent more than one man-year on this project in my spare time. Why? Because I found it would be an interesting challenge and I hoped to be able to help others on this forum getting access to a very good audio analyzer.
I would like to see the "better unit" you can get for USD 449. I suspect you mean the QA401. A nice product, but nowhere near in terms of performance. You may like the combination of software and hardware and that is fair enough. I preferred to use an open standard (ASIO) and let users pick the software that suits their needs and budget.
Once you get your QA401 I think you should test it by connecting a 100 Vrms signal to the input. I am pretty sure that after this test, you would need a new one!
A lot of effort went into the design of the input stage, which has very low noise and distortion and still provide protection against high voltages. If I am not mistaken, the input noise is even lower than on the best AP's you can get!
I tend to agree with acg and NicMac (and other members giving their support):
Good luck
I would like to say a big thanks for all the positive comments from customers and other members on this forum. Without you guys, I would just stop working on the analyzer. And yes, I am looking into a number of additions and improvements.
Hm, maybe very ancient used versions. The modern AP, as I remember, starts from $28K, and the full set is about $70-80K.
May we know the name of this unit?
I don't remember ever having to solder smd components on a commercial project
Must be DIY.
Must be DIY.
@JensH thank you for your work on this and continued support. Any info coming soon on the smps? Would like to get rid of the noise from the toroid..
Hi pbisiac,
I was lucky and bought one in the group buy. I have listened to it (and it is an excellent audio DAC, better than more expensive units - great going Jens!) and use it daily pretty much on the bench. I am extremely happy with it and count myself lucky to have one.
There have been a couple modifications required, and we were allowed to implement them ourselves! Of course there was the offer to send the unit back to the factory and have it modified at no charge. So for a commercial product, there was in fact a DIY factor. As far as software is concerned, I have two paid for versions and am still getting familiar with them. Support for both hardware and software has been exceptional. If Jens would like any help making the product better still, I don't think any of us who use one would decline such a request.
So very simply, I can't say how amazing it was that Jens completed this very complicated project to begin with. I certainly hope that both Jens and RTX can see a good profit from this venture. I recommend the RTX 6001 every chance I get if it suits the application. I think that MI (the software) really brings the power to this project. They have a thread here as well, and have done so much to better their product by simply talking with the users and tire kickers.
You really do have to step back and skim this thread to get a sense of how the project gelled. Without the support of RTX we would probably not have this analyser - to everyone's loss. The actual benefit our community has from this is higher than you could possibly know if you haven't used it, or at least read up on it. For me, it allowed me to see down into the noise floor of my own equipment so I can work effectively as I was literally working in the dark. No hope of owning an Audio Precision or Keysight U8903B.
-Chris
I was lucky and bought one in the group buy. I have listened to it (and it is an excellent audio DAC, better than more expensive units - great going Jens!) and use it daily pretty much on the bench. I am extremely happy with it and count myself lucky to have one.
There have been a couple modifications required, and we were allowed to implement them ourselves! Of course there was the offer to send the unit back to the factory and have it modified at no charge. So for a commercial product, there was in fact a DIY factor. As far as software is concerned, I have two paid for versions and am still getting familiar with them. Support for both hardware and software has been exceptional. If Jens would like any help making the product better still, I don't think any of us who use one would decline such a request.
So very simply, I can't say how amazing it was that Jens completed this very complicated project to begin with. I certainly hope that both Jens and RTX can see a good profit from this venture. I recommend the RTX 6001 every chance I get if it suits the application. I think that MI (the software) really brings the power to this project. They have a thread here as well, and have done so much to better their product by simply talking with the users and tire kickers.
You really do have to step back and skim this thread to get a sense of how the project gelled. Without the support of RTX we would probably not have this analyser - to everyone's loss. The actual benefit our community has from this is higher than you could possibly know if you haven't used it, or at least read up on it. For me, it allowed me to see down into the noise floor of my own equipment so I can work effectively as I was literally working in the dark. No hope of owning an Audio Precision or Keysight U8903B.
-Chris
I have made a version 2 of the design. I sent the Gerbers for manufacturing last week. I made two layouts, one small 4-layer PCB and one slightly larger 2-layer PCB. I intend to mount both and check the thermal properties.
The test PCB I used previously was only intended for testing. The new version includes a DC connector (2.1 mm round, standard type) and an eFuse with power control. The eFuse limits the inrush current. The power control will make it possible to power the unit on/off by a combination of the front panel control (can force if off) and a power on when the USB interface is powered. Of course the USB control can also be omitted, but it will make it possible to power it off completely when no computer is attached or the computer powers down the USB.
@JensH:
"Once you get your QA401 I think you should test it by connecting a 100 Vrms signal to the input. I am pretty sure that after this test, you would need a new one!"
Don't get the point....Why not taking your analyser and connecting 150V and then spend another 2600€ ? Or sending 10KV into my Tektronix ? Or send 220V into my 802s ? Because normally I watch what I'm doing.
"If you can manufacture it for me at a BOM of 250€ + e.g. 20% labor cost, we have a deal! "
If an american company can sell a product which is VERY similar to yours (same converters, isolated USB, metal cabinet, very similar specs, BNCs, big investment in software) for 1/5 of yours it means that they manufacture it with 250$ (or less), don't you agree ? Oh, you are right, their attenuator isn't as versatile......but a couple of resistors will do.
"QA401. A nice product, but nowhere near in terms of performance" ... a little opinionated as a statement, isn't it ? Just in time:
"Any info coming soon on the smps? Would like to get rid of the noise from the toroid.."
Buy a QA401... I'm pretty sure they don't use SimpleSwitchers ;-)
At the end of the day....250+ pages talking about a commercial product, closed source, no software, no automation, too high priced in my opinion. Maybe some other time.
"Once you get your QA401 I think you should test it by connecting a 100 Vrms signal to the input. I am pretty sure that after this test, you would need a new one!"
Don't get the point....Why not taking your analyser and connecting 150V and then spend another 2600€ ? Or sending 10KV into my Tektronix ? Or send 220V into my 802s ? Because normally I watch what I'm doing.
"If you can manufacture it for me at a BOM of 250€ + e.g. 20% labor cost, we have a deal! "
If an american company can sell a product which is VERY similar to yours (same converters, isolated USB, metal cabinet, very similar specs, BNCs, big investment in software) for 1/5 of yours it means that they manufacture it with 250$ (or less), don't you agree ? Oh, you are right, their attenuator isn't as versatile......but a couple of resistors will do.
"QA401. A nice product, but nowhere near in terms of performance" ... a little opinionated as a statement, isn't it ? Just in time:
"Any info coming soon on the smps? Would like to get rid of the noise from the toroid.."
Buy a QA401... I'm pretty sure they don't use SimpleSwitchers ;-)
At the end of the day....250+ pages talking about a commercial product, closed source, no software, no automation, too high priced in my opinion. Maybe some other time.
So you don't like the RTX6001, fine. Just accept that you're in a different boat than most guys around here.
Your point with the software can be seen in different ways. The QA way is to provide their own proprietary software for their analyser. The analyser does not work with any other software. If you don't like how this software works, you're screwed. With the RTX (and just about any other USB audio device) users are free to use whatever software they like. The RTX is well documented, which made it possible for developers to implement software control for the level switches. I personally prefer the RTX way (both as a user and a software developer).