Thanks for the tip! I agree the pyle speakers are not efficient and require a big amp. At least the pyle speakers are cheap af so its not the end of the world if they get trashed. Even when flat mounted in our prototypes, the qms didnt seem to be an issue and the prototype test results with the pyles were actually great for the the price. I would love to get the misco drivers in the future though and never thought about contacting them directly, so thanks!
We used pictures of disassembled sh-50/46 and studied the patent documentation/references to esitimate the optimal placement of the taps. The taps are placed in the corners of the horn to increase efficiency of the horn for each band and to combine the drivers at the nearest points possible.
That is unconventional. With this kind of measurement, either the microphone and speaker should be both on the ground plane, or the speaker should be facing up and the microphone above it. The latter method is only good for bass measurements.
Yes it is and it works well enough and consistently enough that I'll continue to do so no matter what you say. It's far from my first rodeo.
Please feel free to not add any further comment.
Cc cfvvb.
This part was very tricky and it's possible we didn't get it exactly correct. I kinda think we need to make our low taps 1/4" wider (radius) than these, because of the large amount of power it takes to get a flat response at 25' or so.
Look at photos of real Danley's and make assumptions based on the driver specs...
This part was very tricky and it's possible we didn't get it exactly correct. I kinda think we need to make our low taps 1/4" wider (radius) than these, because of the large amount of power it takes to get a flat response at 25' or so.
This was exactly correct based on our tests. Underrated tip!
yes asymmetric slopes are required to get good summation!
I had a go here:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/bm-d446-on-ph-4220.335062/
I know a bit more now so I would make some changes. Try and fix the mid resonance acoustically or in the crossover and be less 'brute force' with hammering the response on axis flat by incorporation of off axis results.
I had a go here:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/bm-d446-on-ph-4220.335062/
I know a bit more now so I would make some changes. Try and fix the mid resonance acoustically or in the crossover and be less 'brute force' with hammering the response on axis flat by incorporation of off axis results.
Nice work bro... Was wishing to build this horn and was asking if you have the dimensions and drawings of the same.... Thank you.
I wont share my exact plans because these are still sold by danley and my plans are not perfect either. You can make really close estimations of the dimensions based on my photos and photos on danleys website. Im happy to answer any questions about the design to help you figure it out!
Are you saying the Misco JC5RTF-B is not the actual driver used in the SH50?
I'm interested if anyone knows the exact drivers used. I saw somewhere someone said the CD is a BMS 4550 but I'm not sure
Yes, the real driver is the Misco JC5RTF-B.
I caused a bunch of confusion years back, because I misinterpreted a comment from Tom Danley, where he mentioned that the Genesis horns used a Celestion closed back midrange. This led me to assume that the other Danley speakers were also using the same Celestion midrange.
Some are, but many are still using the same midrange from the original Sound Physics Labs Unity Horn: the Misco JC5TRF-B.
As I understand it, Todd from Yorkville designed the Yorkville Unity horn without input from Danley, then licenses the technology. Todd opted for a BMS 4550 and Celestion midranges:
Then Danley starting using the BMS 4550, first in the Sound Physics Labs "Runt" and then the Celestion midranges in the Genesis horns:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/i-dont-understand.133745/
The Lambda Unity Horns were the first licensed Unity horn, AFAIK, and the "standard" version used a B&C DE25 iirc along with four of the JC5RTF-Bs.
Keep in mind that all of this lore is kinda "academic" now; we've been building Unity horn variants for so long, I'd argue that the DIYers have largely figured out how to make a lot of drivers work that theoretically shouldn't. In particular, if you 3D print the phase plug for the midranges, you can get them to play a lot higher than hornresp would predict. I've been able to get 8" woofers to play up to 1600Hz in a Unity horn (with a good phase plug) and Art Welter has a project on this forum that uses woofers that are somewhere around fifteen inches!
I caused a bunch of confusion years back, because I misinterpreted a comment from Tom Danley, where he mentioned that the Genesis horns used a Celestion closed back midrange. This led me to assume that the other Danley speakers were also using the same Celestion midrange.
Some are, but many are still using the same midrange from the original Sound Physics Labs Unity Horn: the Misco JC5TRF-B.
As I understand it, Todd from Yorkville designed the Yorkville Unity horn without input from Danley, then licenses the technology. Todd opted for a BMS 4550 and Celestion midranges:
Then Danley starting using the BMS 4550, first in the Sound Physics Labs "Runt" and then the Celestion midranges in the Genesis horns:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/i-dont-understand.133745/
The Lambda Unity Horns were the first licensed Unity horn, AFAIK, and the "standard" version used a B&C DE25 iirc along with four of the JC5RTF-Bs.
Keep in mind that all of this lore is kinda "academic" now; we've been building Unity horn variants for so long, I'd argue that the DIYers have largely figured out how to make a lot of drivers work that theoretically shouldn't. In particular, if you 3D print the phase plug for the midranges, you can get them to play a lot higher than hornresp would predict. I've been able to get 8" woofers to play up to 1600Hz in a Unity horn (with a good phase plug) and Art Welter has a project on this forum that uses woofers that are somewhere around fifteen inches!
Interesting! Do you have an opinion on which is the better driver considering price and performance?
I'm asking because I've been dreaming about building some synergy horns since a friend told me about them at university in around 2012.
I don't have that much experience with acoustic design other than some basic projects but I am a professional product designer so I have the CAD and manufacturing skills and I'm surrounded by acoustic engineers in my work in music tech in Berlin.
I just think it would be safest for me not to be too adventurous (even though synergy horns are already adventurous) and stick with a design that is already proven. I want to target PA usage so I thought I would try something pretty close to a SH50, SH60 or SH46 clone much like this thread's project or this one over on AVS DIY SH-50/SH-60 blend
So in terms of drivers used by Danley you have BMS 4550 for highs, Misco JC5TRF-B or Celestion TF0510MR (is that the one used in the Genesis horn?)
And what about woofers?
No offense, but I've always avoided publishing any kind of high efficiency Unity horn projects. Danley Sound Labs isn't a big company and I think that putting designs out there that could allow people to DIY an SH-50 is no bueno.
On top of that, the #1 reason that people shouldn't try and clone an SH-50, is that the crossover is just ridiculously complex. The first time I actually finished a Unity horn project, I spend 75% of the project time getting the crossover "in the ballpark." And it still wasn't as good as it can be.
As I understand it, Danley himself has made quite a few changes to the crossover over the years. So it's reasonable to assume that even the inventor of the Unity horn has invested hundreds of hours on the passive crossover.
Also, in case anyone thinks I'm just being a wet blanket: I actually offered to buy the SH50s that I did a review on, back in 2015. The place I rented them from never responded to my email, so that went nowhere.
On top of that, the #1 reason that people shouldn't try and clone an SH-50, is that the crossover is just ridiculously complex. The first time I actually finished a Unity horn project, I spend 75% of the project time getting the crossover "in the ballpark." And it still wasn't as good as it can be.
As I understand it, Danley himself has made quite a few changes to the crossover over the years. So it's reasonable to assume that even the inventor of the Unity horn has invested hundreds of hours on the passive crossover.
Also, in case anyone thinks I'm just being a wet blanket: I actually offered to buy the SH50s that I did a review on, back in 2015. The place I rented them from never responded to my email, so that went nowhere.
Agree, especially WRT XOs, but long ago when ya'll were stuck on the mids selection I posted one of Tom's published hints of the mean between the LF, HF BW that sets a 'close enough' tuning for simming purposes and anyone can use HR's horn/driver designer to find optimal Qt, ditto for the woofers if desired along with doing it all or just fine tuning using its MEH Wizard, though don't know if VituixCAD can do horns to get a starting point of each for XO tweaking.
I don't want to take any business from Danley, I don't even want to share plans. I just want to build some speakers for myself for the learning experience and to hopefully have some nice speakers to play with
And for the crossover I was planning to go all active DSP.
I don't need to use the exact drivers but at least if I know the ones used in the SH50 I can look at how they compare to other drivers and have a reference for what works
@jamesdebono how about a documented design, as build by weltersys...
I know it's not a Danley, but it is completely documented to have a flying start.
I know it's not a Danley, but it is completely documented to have a flying start.
I'm not looking for a design necessarily I just wanted to know what drivers the Danley speakers use. Namely the woofers
It was your post many many moons ago that helped me "break through" and make my first successful design, thank you!
Was on the Bass List in 2001, and Tom was on there, but the question of "what mids do I use" was a mystery at the time. In particular, I'd trying to build some Unity horns using Parts Express buyout woofers from Aurasound, and that didn't work. At the time, I was using midranges that were small, but their QES was too high.
In a nutshell, I now understand that it's not about the SIZE of the woofers, it's their EBP that counts. There are 3" woofers that WON'T work on a Unity horn and there are 10" woofers that WILL (especially if they have a low QES.)
You're welcome!
Thank you for making the most of it and sharing your ongoing 'adventures' in leading edge audio design with us in so many ways!
Hmm, not sure about that, his Unity prototype used around a popular 0.8 Qt marketed as small HT drivers IIRC and my quickie cobbled together POC with a cheap plastic piezo horn taped to a cardboard extension used a near 2.0 Qt sealed back driver, so low Qt is only really needed for H.E. or really small sealed backs and/or really wide BW apps.
That the 'beauty' of MEHs for me, it can be made for virtually any range of BWs, polar response, you name it, app in the most compact way and had I been creative enough would for sure have opted for it over a near 7+ ft tall, ~ 5 ft wide pair of separate horns stacked in the corners that got close enough to time/phase coherent, though nothing like what I 'experienced' up at Gainesville, but got to admit it was fun watching folks gawk at both their size and high end cinema palace sound performance.
Thank you for making the most of it and sharing your ongoing 'adventures' in leading edge audio design with us in so many ways!
Hmm, not sure about that, his Unity prototype used around a popular 0.8 Qt marketed as small HT drivers IIRC and my quickie cobbled together POC with a cheap plastic piezo horn taped to a cardboard extension used a near 2.0 Qt sealed back driver, so low Qt is only really needed for H.E. or really small sealed backs and/or really wide BW apps.
That the 'beauty' of MEHs for me, it can be made for virtually any range of BWs, polar response, you name it, app in the most compact way and had I been creative enough would for sure have opted for it over a near 7+ ft tall, ~ 5 ft wide pair of separate horns stacked in the corners that got close enough to time/phase coherent, though nothing like what I 'experienced' up at Gainesville, but got to admit it was fun watching folks gawk at both their size and high end cinema palace sound performance.