Yes, exactly. Sorry for the inaccurate wording.
If it only has higher acceleration it is just loder. If it has higher acceleration with the same power it is more efficient. The latter can be done with a higher fs or lower Qes.
Regards
Charles
If it only has higher acceleration it is just loder. If it has higher acceleration with the same power it is more efficient. The latter can be done with a higher fs or lower Qes.
Regards
Charles
(Well kept secrets told to Martin (no better way to put it)).
Martin, this post is for your eyes only !
Don't even tell your most precious pet.
If you do, you risk adding to your knowledgebase
Today I am doing a mountain of work on my keyboard, so to lighten the load, I might as well diversify, by writing here inbetween important tasks.
Sorry about the concrete joke and then not. I will give you concrete advice based on my own experience, so this will be purely objective.
I had the good fortune of being employed by Russ Andrews of many fames in the 90's. Great mentor and all out knowledgable fellow. I have great respect for the man and his family running his buisness.
Initially taken on as cableguy, making up Kimber cables. As for directionality of those, I listened for the difference on RATA 20. I don't think that speaker is any different to other speakers in that respect. It is the best monitor I have had.
Before moving to England (not from Denmark), I have build and had many speakers. Too many to mention, I allways found myself going full circle and then coming back to the 8"ish paper/hemp cone. Specifically from SEAS of Norway, as the only midrange worth me having. Foam surround is a must for me. Examples of those in Audionote UK and Snell speakers. It just covers voices so well, without the quack, that some other materials radiate. For £100.
For the beginner in this dynamic efficiency lark, this is a cheap and surefire method of getting a good step of the way. It might not be ultimate in low level detail, but it's easy to drive for amplifiers and help them deliver more.
It is interresting, to see that a man like Troels Gravesen chooses this driver to go all out on improving it and calling it Jantzen 8008. What have I missed ? He was basically concluding, that this was the best he could get. On top of that, he is a magician with crossovers like Ole Klifoth of F3/LYD. I consider their ears trained. And Claus Futtrup: another clever dane.
So get a SEAS 566 for a start and flop it in any cabinet you fancy.
Now with a capacitor and a coil you can hook up any other driver for a two-way speaker. That is obviously a tweeter of some description.
I found my Vifa D26 to do what I want. In the RATA speakers the tweeter is a ribbon. And that has detail aplenty. The H566 comes in many disguises (silver coils/AlNiCo magnets...blablabla) at nearly any high price, if you like to pay.
You don't need an expensive tweeter to get good sound out of your experiments.
However. The ribbon tweeter does things a little different from small domes, that I like. Russ told me one story we laughed about. At a family gathering, in their converted barn room, one of his (grown up) daughters, was sitting next to the RATA speaker, going at full tilt, when a flame shot out of the tweeter and lit her hair 🙂flame:!). So you see... You can get injuries and damage, when testing and using tweeters. Don't look at your ribbontweeter to see how it behaves when at SPLmax. Not without a magnifying glass or other eyeprotection, anyway. The speaker has the simples crossover imaginable. A single ~3uF capacitor in seris with the tweeter. 1.order hipass, which didn't protect it much from abuse. So there. Complicate the crossover, if you like. Many tweeters need it and it ends up getting unnessicarily expensive. Use money for better drivers.
And this is where you can start enjoing the hobby and the art of fiddling.
While listening to good music 🙂.....
If I was to go the horn/compressiondriver route, I would get the cheapest horn of the right shape and encase it in concrete. I've seen the fad, of making coffeetables in concrete on homedecorating programmes. Can look rather nice and has the "advantages" of mass and vibration deadening, if the right mix is used. Mr. Andrews went the other way and used torlyte, which is a light and stiff sandwich he developed for the purpose, to minimize vibrationenergy buildup. He also uses it for turntables like Garrard 401 plinths and other stuff.. You only want the drivers to vibrate sound (and vents offcourse).
So, for much less than $1k, I now have my ultimate speaker, with wich I compare all others in my room. I don't need any better. Which is a relief.
Moneysaving tips;
I make up my own cables. Audionote litz wire and solderwick in heatshrink tubing. Hardwired crossovers without boutique caps. Jantzen has all levels and especially their coils have the right quality feel. Get big ones and wind them down to the inductance you need. I have LR2 as crossovers to my Vifas and most SEAS, ScanSpeak and family can get quite happy with that. Higher sensitivity tweeter than woofer and find equal level to your liking, with Lpad and then bypassing the Lpad with fixed resistor.
Integration is everything.
So, Martin.
Get on with it and have fun.
Listen to yourself and find out, what you want.
What can I say ?
I think dynamics flourish, if you don't keep them down.
DPC is a killer. Read Claus Futtrups papers and try to understand them.
Don't listen to me. I have stupid ideas. Get your own.
Kind regards, Kim
Martin, this post is for your eyes only !
Don't even tell your most precious pet.
If you do, you risk adding to your knowledgebase
Today I am doing a mountain of work on my keyboard, so to lighten the load, I might as well diversify, by writing here inbetween important tasks.
Sorry about the concrete joke and then not. I will give you concrete advice based on my own experience, so this will be purely objective.
I had the good fortune of being employed by Russ Andrews of many fames in the 90's. Great mentor and all out knowledgable fellow. I have great respect for the man and his family running his buisness.
Initially taken on as cableguy, making up Kimber cables. As for directionality of those, I listened for the difference on RATA 20. I don't think that speaker is any different to other speakers in that respect. It is the best monitor I have had.
Before moving to England (not from Denmark), I have build and had many speakers. Too many to mention, I allways found myself going full circle and then coming back to the 8"ish paper/hemp cone. Specifically from SEAS of Norway, as the only midrange worth me having. Foam surround is a must for me. Examples of those in Audionote UK and Snell speakers. It just covers voices so well, without the quack, that some other materials radiate. For £100.
For the beginner in this dynamic efficiency lark, this is a cheap and surefire method of getting a good step of the way. It might not be ultimate in low level detail, but it's easy to drive for amplifiers and help them deliver more.
It is interresting, to see that a man like Troels Gravesen chooses this driver to go all out on improving it and calling it Jantzen 8008. What have I missed ? He was basically concluding, that this was the best he could get. On top of that, he is a magician with crossovers like Ole Klifoth of F3/LYD. I consider their ears trained. And Claus Futtrup: another clever dane.
So get a SEAS 566 for a start and flop it in any cabinet you fancy.
Now with a capacitor and a coil you can hook up any other driver for a two-way speaker. That is obviously a tweeter of some description.
I found my Vifa D26 to do what I want. In the RATA speakers the tweeter is a ribbon. And that has detail aplenty. The H566 comes in many disguises (silver coils/AlNiCo magnets...blablabla) at nearly any high price, if you like to pay.
You don't need an expensive tweeter to get good sound out of your experiments.
However. The ribbon tweeter does things a little different from small domes, that I like. Russ told me one story we laughed about. At a family gathering, in their converted barn room, one of his (grown up) daughters, was sitting next to the RATA speaker, going at full tilt, when a flame shot out of the tweeter and lit her hair 🙂flame:!). So you see... You can get injuries and damage, when testing and using tweeters. Don't look at your ribbontweeter to see how it behaves when at SPLmax. Not without a magnifying glass or other eyeprotection, anyway. The speaker has the simples crossover imaginable. A single ~3uF capacitor in seris with the tweeter. 1.order hipass, which didn't protect it much from abuse. So there. Complicate the crossover, if you like. Many tweeters need it and it ends up getting unnessicarily expensive. Use money for better drivers.
And this is where you can start enjoing the hobby and the art of fiddling.
While listening to good music 🙂.....
If I was to go the horn/compressiondriver route, I would get the cheapest horn of the right shape and encase it in concrete. I've seen the fad, of making coffeetables in concrete on homedecorating programmes. Can look rather nice and has the "advantages" of mass and vibration deadening, if the right mix is used. Mr. Andrews went the other way and used torlyte, which is a light and stiff sandwich he developed for the purpose, to minimize vibrationenergy buildup. He also uses it for turntables like Garrard 401 plinths and other stuff.. You only want the drivers to vibrate sound (and vents offcourse).
So, for much less than $1k, I now have my ultimate speaker, with wich I compare all others in my room. I don't need any better. Which is a relief.
Moneysaving tips;
I make up my own cables. Audionote litz wire and solderwick in heatshrink tubing. Hardwired crossovers without boutique caps. Jantzen has all levels and especially their coils have the right quality feel. Get big ones and wind them down to the inductance you need. I have LR2 as crossovers to my Vifas and most SEAS, ScanSpeak and family can get quite happy with that. Higher sensitivity tweeter than woofer and find equal level to your liking, with Lpad and then bypassing the Lpad with fixed resistor.
Integration is everything.
So, Martin.
Get on with it and have fun.
Listen to yourself and find out, what you want.
What can I say ?
I think dynamics flourish, if you don't keep them down.
DPC is a killer. Read Claus Futtrups papers and try to understand them.
Don't listen to me. I have stupid ideas. Get your own.
Kind regards, Kim
Noooo! Not again! Please!
Look at the differential equation of a driven, damped oscillator: the mass is just a frequency-independent scaling factor. There is no influence on the upper frequency limit.
There can be a woofer with a light cone but weak magnet with a big gap which cannot develop much force to control that cone. There can be a woofer with a heavier cone but larger magnet and a tighter gap therefore developing more force to control the heavy cone. I think just saying that a cone is lighter or heavier as being good or bad doesn't make tell the whole story.
Tino, you mention motor strength against cone control, ie Qes. Cone control isn't a problem, and less of it means a higher Q driver. A low Q driver isn't too necessary for a direct radiator. Air is easy to push around and the resonance helps the response.
In order to make use of a strong motor, the driver should be restricted with a throat, otherwise it is not much different besides the damped roll-off.
In order to make use of a strong motor, the driver should be restricted with a throat, otherwise it is not much different besides the damped roll-off.
Tino
If you have a driver with a "big" gap, it is usually down to lousy control of manufacturing tolerances and trying to get away with producing a not so decent driver on the cheap.
If you have a driver with a "big" gap, it is usually down to lousy control of manufacturing tolerances and trying to get away with producing a not so decent driver on the cheap.
Martin
If you need PA level, try Fostex bullet-horn tweeters.
Hard to kill, but can easily be done.
If you need PA level, try Fostex bullet-horn tweeters.
Hard to kill, but can easily be done.
The most "dynamic" speaker I ever heard were the Overkill ones with the manger drivers and Deqx.
Maybe there's a clue there.
Maybe there's a clue there.
system7 SEAS 566 Also known as CA21 FE/B Look for AudioNote(UK!) SPKR 002 Same unit, but comes in many guises.
Martin, what exactly is the reason for this thread? Are you looking for speaker suggestions that sound dynamic or for some kind of recipe for dynamic speakers...
If it's the first one, the way I try to get it is a full range line array. That seems to work pretty good. Not as high efficiency as a horn, but way more efficiency than more standard 2 or 3 way speakers. And reasonably well behaved in the time domain, up to a point. It does sound dynamic to me.
I use a Scan Speak sibling to get there 🙂.
If it's the first one, the way I try to get it is a full range line array. That seems to work pretty good. Not as high efficiency as a horn, but way more efficiency than more standard 2 or 3 way speakers. And reasonably well behaved in the time domain, up to a point. It does sound dynamic to me.
I use a Scan Speak sibling to get there 🙂.
When comes the third round listening test with FaitalPro and Vifa TC9, I believe that the TC9 will be the winner. The ScanSpeak 10F, no matter detail and low distortion, is too colored (all stiff cones need crossover). TC9 is stand out for the most natural.
OK, snup. I'm still struggling to find the exact 8" driver you are talking about, but I have a feeling it's low loss or high Qms. Maybe foam surround. IDK. Though I regard a corrugated surround as being low loss too. Just swapping nodes and antinodes at the termination in mathematical terms. 🙂
PRESTIGE WOOFERS
Anyway, hear the wise words of our very own Joachim Gerhard:
Now I can't but help noticing that Troels Gravesen found some early inspiration for his high efficiency JA 8008 designs in the old CA21REX with an added foam surround. High Efficiency Speakers
Hope you're keeping up with this. 😱
PRESTIGE WOOFERS
Anyway, hear the wise words of our very own Joachim Gerhard:
Now I can't but help noticing that Troels Gravesen found some early inspiration for his high efficiency JA 8008 designs in the old CA21REX with an added foam surround. High Efficiency Speakers
Hope you're keeping up with this. 😱
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system7 You will find CA21 at AudioNote UK's speakerkit section. AN has many different CA21's, but they call the unit SPKR-002 and SPKR-004. If you want to make Snell J or E, you can go nuts on the more expensive woofers and tweeters. I stick to the basic woofer SPKR-002. That is a rebadged SEAS H566 (CA21 FE/B , 4 Ohm). Hope it helps. I see you are not the only one having trouble finding it. I don't have link. Kim
I have used AN-J LX
I can assure you that this woofer, while good, is not necessary more dynamic that others speakers /drivers ive heard.
to be fully honest, the AN J lx was arguably less dynamic then other speakers.
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Of course you are right. After all the discussion regarding this dynamic thing, why is it still a mystery? 😕
Yes, we have semantic issue, because "dynamics" (as mentioned by anyone) means a few things. But for each of these "dynamics", the cause is very clear.
And for arrangement such as the Audionote, it cannot be "dynamic", NEVER! To improve upon it, first thing is to use waveguide. A waveguide can slow down, which means work against dynamics, but it can cure the main dynamic issue which common in small speakers.
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