Allen, with your horns, do you feel there is a cancellation of the recorded micro(possibly macro too) detail? IME, this cancellation is caused by horn surface reflections.. Problem with this for me personally is this loss of detail makes for reduced resolution and reduced imaging in the accurate sense, horn soundstage is like hearing in a hall, that echo ambient sound rather than direct from the source.. since I'm a freak for accurate detail, I can't accept this even with the other positive benefits with horns and waveguides...🙂
Also, if you have horns and use very good electronics, the horns are acting like one big noise floor and masking the detail, so why bother using the best amps..
Jay's comment on lightweight cones: I use HIVI M6a, aluminum magnesium cones and its the best I've heard for unmasking the recorded detail.. I Have M5a too that need to be used..
Respectfully, the way I see it..
Also, if you have horns and use very good electronics, the horns are acting like one big noise floor and masking the detail, so why bother using the best amps..
Jay's comment on lightweight cones: I use HIVI M6a, aluminum magnesium cones and its the best I've heard for unmasking the recorded detail.. I Have M5a too that need to be used..
Respectfully, the way I see it..
Often, it must be kept as a secret simply to protect your reputation. Because your quality can be easily seen from your work 😀
But it can also be some kind of intellectual pride or something.
My speaker is not "published" for many reasons. One of them is in line with my anonymity. And my speakers are often modified and commercially not available. And indeed, I implemented new things (uncommon crossover structure to make certain things possible).
It's a known benefit (good indeed from dynamics perspective) but has issues from dispersion etc.
My favorite woofer is high Qts paper cone, most probably non metallic former.
It is not mysterious. It is low distortion at low SPL. Often with long magnet gap and short Xmax such that the coil is always in the middle of the magnetic field (linear).
Eh, mine is also using foam surround 🙂 I know it is special because I can compare it (sound-wise) to my other much more expensive woofers side by side.
Well, if we're sharing information about real examples: https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/147255-jubilee-kpt-khj-lf-k402-kpt-k402-fact-sheets/
and the JAES article on the bass bin development:
https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_id=87084
and the JAES article on the bass bin development:
https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_id=87084
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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I too have been struggling with what makes a speaker sound dynamic. I'm not really sure at the moment. I think it might be low distortion coupled with making sure the drivers are all working within their linear range during louder passages. I'm just totally guessing at the moment though. I'd love to know. I do like my OB speakers which are a fair size (dual 15" and compression tweeter) but prior to that, I had sealed two way monitor style speakers with 12" drivers and compression tweeter and those felt pretty dynamic as well.
I've also heard some speakers that were very dynamic sounding which were HiVi D6.8 MTM along with a Vifa D27 series tweeter in a fairly large vented setup. They were driven by a pretty hefty amp too. I think low distortion is probably the key.
I've also heard some speakers that were very dynamic sounding which were HiVi D6.8 MTM along with a Vifa D27 series tweeter in a fairly large vented setup. They were driven by a pretty hefty amp too. I think low distortion is probably the key.
Phase_Accurate, thanks for the link to the Kii speakers. Interesting to see how they are using DSP to control directivity. Would be interesting to hear them.
As for small speakers - or even tiny - sounding big, I have an example. The John Blue JB3.
Holy Cats! We got a dozen of these in to sell at an audio show and I laughed when I opened the carton. Silly little speakers. 😛 I stopped laughing and started scratching my head when I heard them. They sounded big, very big. We fooled a lot of people. No, they would not play loud, but they would fill a room and really fool you at modest levels. I don't know how. There is nothing inside the box but a little poly-fill. Never got a chance to measure them, wish I had.
JohnBlue Audio-????
As for small speakers - or even tiny - sounding big, I have an example. The John Blue JB3.
Holy Cats! We got a dozen of these in to sell at an audio show and I laughed when I opened the carton. Silly little speakers. 😛 I stopped laughing and started scratching my head when I heard them. They sounded big, very big. We fooled a lot of people. No, they would not play loud, but they would fill a room and really fool you at modest levels. I don't know how. There is nothing inside the box but a little poly-fill. Never got a chance to measure them, wish I had.
JohnBlue Audio-????
What??? This is completely opposite of what I hear. So different from my experience that I am not even sure what you are talking about.
To me it's like asking "Do you find that your 400 HP sports car is unresponsive to the throttle around town and lugs going up hills?" I'm boggled.
What??? This is completely opposite of what I hear. So different from my experience that I am not even sure what you are talking about.
To me it's like asking "Do you find that your 400 HP sports car is unresponsive to the throttle around town and lugs going up hills?" I'm boggled.
Are you "serious" (with being surprised), Pano? Because if you are, that's confusing... 😕
Because I believe that describes how most horns sound like in general. I said MOST because I believe that the theory behind horn is valid, even tho I haven't heard one that sounds right. To make one that sound right is difficult (because I can't even make a simple tweeter waveguide that works perfectly), but I believe is possible (using finite element analysis software may be).
I know people who used horns and can afford the most exotic tube amps. Of course their horn systems sound impressive. But the sound description is similar...
What I mean is, listen to cheap class-D amplifiers. It sounds "terrible". Then listen to the expensive class-D amplifiers. Better, but the sound characteristics is the same... But I believe, that there must be somebody that can make it right (easier may be a "semi" horn, or horn with short throat)
My 2 cents. I think horns do have coloration by the nature and possibly the deeper the horn, the more coloration it could have, but any side effects are offset by the fact that there is lower distortion and better dynamics. There is also the benefit of less room interaction being more directional. I find less room issues with my waveguided tweeters thats for sure.
Thinking about it this way, if a non horn system is very accurate, but due to its design distorts more easily and has lower dynamics could in a way be called colored as well. I guess its all colored in some way or other, its just a matter of picking your poison 🙂
I've never really listened to a full horn system. Its much too large for my area but I am enjoying my horn loaded tweeters at the moment 🙂
Thinking about it this way, if a non horn system is very accurate, but due to its design distorts more easily and has lower dynamics could in a way be called colored as well. I guess its all colored in some way or other, its just a matter of picking your poison 🙂
I've never really listened to a full horn system. Its much too large for my area but I am enjoying my horn loaded tweeters at the moment 🙂
I solved this back in the 90`s. It is a lot about basic physics, electric and acoustic. On my way to make the optimal dynamic speaker I had to re-design amlifiers, cables and moore. Every detail counts in the end-result, a lot like building a racecar or race-enegine.
First; take a look at the classic speakerboxes with their parallell sides stucked with absorbers. They are designed a lot like the mufflers you have under your car to reduce the enegines soundlevel. Absorbers kills dynamics.
The next step would be to totally re-think your amplifiers secondary stage. All the way from the trafo through the cables and filters. Tiny cables kills real dynamics, from your fusebox and all the way, but most of all on the secondary low current side.
I`ve had some horn-guys sitting with their jaws dropped; "it sounds like a PA-system!!" as a compliment for the dynamics. Not from a wall of speakers but just from a tiny set of wife-friendly floor-speakers.
First; take a look at the classic speakerboxes with their parallell sides stucked with absorbers. They are designed a lot like the mufflers you have under your car to reduce the enegines soundlevel. Absorbers kills dynamics.
The next step would be to totally re-think your amplifiers secondary stage. All the way from the trafo through the cables and filters. Tiny cables kills real dynamics, from your fusebox and all the way, but most of all on the secondary low current side.
I`ve had some horn-guys sitting with their jaws dropped; "it sounds like a PA-system!!" as a compliment for the dynamics. Not from a wall of speakers but just from a tiny set of wife-friendly floor-speakers.
Sounds like you've "got it", 😎 !! Very few people seem to be able to latch onto the concept, that the overall refining of the system is key - once one has got over the hurdle of obsessing about one particular part of the chain being all-important, then real progress can start to be made ... and IME once past that point there are almost no limits, the sound can be made as big, as intense, as satisfying as one is interested in pursuing - the basic understanding of how to properly approach the 'problem' is in place now ...
What??? This is completely opposite of what I hear. So different from my experience that I am not even sure what you are talking about.
To me it's like asking "Do you find that your 400 HP sports car is unresponsive to the throttle around town and lugs going up hills?" I'm boggled.
Agree, that direct radiators need more power for responsiveness but Is detail tied in with dynamics? I think so..
Say horn efficiency(dynamics) promotes exposure of recorded detail, then it's cancelled by the out of phase surface reflections..
Direct radiators need amp power for dynamics and subsequent detail.. Power is easy to find..
Also, direct radiators usually have flat hard baffle surfaces, causing similar problem to horns above 1khz so maybe horns could expose the recorded detail more accurately to direct radiators in some instances..
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BAH! Pictures or it didn't happen! Why should I believe you at all? 😀
Usual audio-foolery IMO. You see you are indulging in the secret sauce audio voodoo...advances the art not a bit!
I share my designs and experiments quite freely. They have strengths IMO.
I really do believe that all we do in audio is adjust the compromises. You can make a speaker with a very flat response at your measuring spot, but it frequently sounds TOO POLITE and even DULL.
And it's a common enough experiment to take out the cabinet damping for a livelier sound. But then it gets fatigueing.
I really think it's the drivers that make the difference. And I completely admire what Troels Gravesen is doing these days with his favourite projects:
DTQWT-mkIII
Oh, I nearly forgot. Here's an enjoyable site to peruse. Those lovely Eminence drivers:
http://www.eminence.com/pro-audio/american-standard/
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Either we have ears from different species, or I have NO idea what you guys are talking about with all your horn reflections and such. I dunno, maybe you are just hearing things in the recording you don't with other types? What you describe is 180 from my experience.
Or are you just making fun of poor old Pano?
Or are you just making fun of poor old Pano?
the hobby is supposed to be fun. Part of it is making fun of other peoples systems and ideas.
One of the most naturally dynamic speakers I have heard , was RATA 2 and 3-way.
I cant remember excactly what the id of driveunits was. But they have 8" papercones with silver voicecoils and a ribbon tweeter (german i think) 1. order hi-pass.
That was a cracker.
One of the most naturally dynamic speakers I have heard , was RATA 2 and 3-way.
I cant remember excactly what the id of driveunits was. But they have 8" papercones with silver voicecoils and a ribbon tweeter (german i think) 1. order hi-pass.
That was a cracker.
I guess knowing what causes a problem.. the distortion mechanism, the sources of that and how to stop them doing it. Preferrably in isolation, eg: if an amp has 2HD which cancels a driver's 2HD, the speaker and amp are not repeatable on their own.Jay said:
D6 (1200Hz) plus harmonics, no I've heard things fall together over 0.1dB, but only in this range IIRC.
I'm not seeing 'dynamics' as being something. A lack of certain distortions that give a system a signature tied in with changing levels. Most of which are usually wanted. I once thought, that if this was the only goal it would more or less cover all the other things we'd want to do anyway.
A direct radiator uses cone velocity to move air. A horn throat is a restriction that reduces cone movement and loads the motor, and can push the driver resonance down. So perhaps a light and stiff cone, and a motor designed for power over a shorter travelJay said:
The 2 most dynamic speakers I have heard have been Lowthers, and Rehdeko. Both have high sensitivity drivers with light cones.
I have read on several occasions that putting notch filters into full range speakers (particularly Lowthers) gives benefits, BUT the liveliness and dynamism of the speakers is reduced.
In my (ignorant) view, if you want to have really lively dynamic sounding speakers, compromises need to be made elsewhere.
I have read on several occasions that putting notch filters into full range speakers (particularly Lowthers) gives benefits, BUT the liveliness and dynamism of the speakers is reduced.
In my (ignorant) view, if you want to have really lively dynamic sounding speakers, compromises need to be made elsewhere.
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