I brought this topic up after taking a harder look at true ribbons and what they do better than ANY transducer in the high frequency regions and that’s consistent directivity on the horizontal plane from 5khz up.
Someone mentioned ADAM speakers earlier and I think the term ‘ribbon’ has been homogenized incorrectly……pleated or folded drivers like these and other AMT drivers aren’t the same principle.…..they typically roll off above 12k or so, can cross lower and have slightly better vertical dispersion. Subjectively, when used in the upper midrange and low treble, the sound smoother than true ribbons which distort heavily in this region. There’s not too many manufacturers left in this segment.
But there’s some significant flaws with true ribbons by design and thats their size in relation to their response range. When used as a single HF driver solution, for many listeners the limited vertical dispersion is disturbing….something I have a hard time understanding in that if you’re here on DIY audio with a ‘true’ love of listening to great music…..sit your a$$ down and listen 😉
True Ribbons are also limited to what driver can be used for midrange……it’s gotta be fairly small to avoid time and phase smearing in the crossover region and as such, typically reduced power handling……there’s no real 2 way option here……optimally a purpose build midrange…..a midwoofer being so much of a compromise that well…..why even bother….you shoulda just used a dome instead.
Someone mentioned ADAM speakers earlier and I think the term ‘ribbon’ has been homogenized incorrectly……pleated or folded drivers like these and other AMT drivers aren’t the same principle.…..they typically roll off above 12k or so, can cross lower and have slightly better vertical dispersion. Subjectively, when used in the upper midrange and low treble, the sound smoother than true ribbons which distort heavily in this region. There’s not too many manufacturers left in this segment.
But there’s some significant flaws with true ribbons by design and thats their size in relation to their response range. When used as a single HF driver solution, for many listeners the limited vertical dispersion is disturbing….something I have a hard time understanding in that if you’re here on DIY audio with a ‘true’ love of listening to great music…..sit your a$$ down and listen 😉
True Ribbons are also limited to what driver can be used for midrange……it’s gotta be fairly small to avoid time and phase smearing in the crossover region and as such, typically reduced power handling……there’s no real 2 way option here……optimally a purpose build midrange…..a midwoofer being so much of a compromise that well…..why even bother….you shoulda just used a dome instead.
With that much space behind me I'd try diffusers. No absorption on the back at all. Wherever you can, preserve the energy and send it to the back. A very nice example of something like this is the room from member jim1961. He's got a thread about that room on Gearspace.
He catches the energy from the left speaker with the panel that's on the right side behind the listening spot and reflects it back to the left panel from a more lateral angle.
This creates a larger distance before that energy is 'scattered or diffracted' back to the listening spot. It's a dedicated room, it does not look like a regular living room etc 😀. The product of years of work and experiments. It creates a Haas kicker effect that's complimentary to the stage in front of the listener. It enhances the perception of what's coming from the direct sound without messing up detail retrieval etc.
Basically a LEDE room with a Haas kicker. Life end being behind the listener, dead end behind the speakers.
Edit: You're fully invested in Home Theatre within that room. For that purpose you'd probably want to keep some absorption in the back.
Maybe use those surrounds as ambience speakers. Can always give it a try 🙂.
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Don’t mean to come off as rude, but then you’ve either never experienced true stereo imaging or you’re not listening.….and this assuming quite a bit on my part. If we’re talking a ‘typical’ on the wall or close to wall display and row of LCRs……this is about as bad as it gets for imaging.
I‘ve tested this simple theory countless times with guests and friends in our studio lounge……a small pair of NHT bookshelf speakers and a single sub in between with whole system out 4 feet into the room and this little 3 piece can best systems costing exponentially more………an impractical use for many/most…..but no less the reality.
MEH = Multiple Entry Horn, Danley Unity or Synergies being good examples of the sort.
Not my video, but it does show all the drivers that 'fire' into a single horn:
Not my video, but it does show all the drivers that 'fire' into a single horn:
Haha...no thank you, not anymore.
I did that up until age 50 or so.....was a diehard electrostat / ribbon / planar enthusiast. Imaging and sweetspot listening was all important.
Always sitting down of course, trying to optimize the sweet spot.
For the last 20 years, I've said to hell with sweet-spot listening.....and enjoying music more than ever.
I now like a system that's good for a 10ft wide, seated or standing, listening zone.
I like to listen seated on high bar chairs....they allow a smooth transition from seated to standing.
Not usually in them for long....cause the sound is so ******* engaging, I end up on my feet dancin' or a swayin'.
So no sir, not gonna catch my a$$ sunk in some cushy chair.... with no chance of dancing with my honey,
or elbowing and grinning over the sound with my buds ... 😛
LOVE IT Mark!…….enjoy sir. I also enjoy music just the way you describe. I’ve got in ceilings in the bathroom and my wife is always complaining about the water bill! Lol
Thanks man ! And haha about the bathroom...amazing the ways and places we audio nuts can find to enjoy music, huh?! 🙂
Sometimes I feel I should be satisfied with what I have as I enjoy music(movies too) and get immersed with the sound for hours after I treated my room. And then when I see all these different techniques and their experiences, I feel I might be missing something want to try more. 🙂With that much space behind me I'd try diffusers. No absorption on the back at all. Wherever you can, preserve the energy and send it to the back. A very nice example of something like this is the room from member jim1961. He's got a thread about that room on Gearspace.
He catches the energy from the left speaker with the panel that's on the right side behind the listening spot and reflects it back to the left panel from a more lateral angle.
This creates a larger distance before that energy is 'scattered or diffracted' back to the listening spot. It's a dedicated room, it does not look like a regular living room etc 😀. The product of years of work and experiments. It creates a Haas kicker effect that's complimentary to the stage in front of the listener. It enhances the perception of what's coming from the direct sound without messing up detail retrieval etc.
Basically a LEDE room with a Haas kicker. Life end being behind the listener, dead end behind the speakers.
Edit: You're fully invested in Home Theatre within that room. For that purpose you'd probably want to keep some absorption in the back.
Maybe use those surrounds as ambience speakers. Can always give it a try 🙂.
Sounds like oversimplifying. Phase is usually an indicator that other kinds of change have occurred (note that I used "phase response proper").
In any case, all this is ignoring the crossover DI, which can't be assessed by phase alone, but which might be loosely implied in the case of an MEH.
I’ll add that IF you‘re system is the Synthesis in your signature photo, I owe you an apology as the 45 degree horizontal control would be ideal for the setup with screen mentioned……not many folks have experienced the JBL which is quite exceptional in what it does……folks with cathedral ceilings would get a very special treat.
Which model of NHT?
I really miss the A-20 i had access to. Paired with the dedicated sub it was a killer nearfield system imho.
I think it was my first encounter with a closed box using the principle of Linkwitz Transform. Got hooked. Too bad NHT were difficult to obtain in my country.
Anyway, front wall reflection can be... an issue. But not always. Cardioid is a very nice technical answer to this but i disgress...
I had similar experience that you describe with my girlfriend mini hifi ( without the sub though) when we moved into our house: in the room i described i had set them up as nearfield around 2,4m deep in the room before unloading my gear and wow! They sounded terrific ( at low level) despite them being what i consider sh.tty loudspeakers... combination of nearfield in a relatively big room ( 5,7m x 6,6mx 3,8m )and no ceilling reflection thanks to the cathedral ceiling
Could you please give a reference of what you call a true ribbon?
Amt are ribbon to me ( and to Adam too as this is how they define their AMT) but maybe i'm wrong.
For the ADAM i've heard they are not limited to 12khz, the bigger models they offer are most often 3 ways paired with a dome mid ( i thought from discussion with one of their representative it was to match directivity and allow for higher SPL required by this bigger model)... well to me they match your description of what a true ribbon is! 😉
Sitting me down to serious listening i did and i do. A lot.
But at home when chilling i like to moove around too and dislike 'varying' sound, i find it tiresome. And being sitted focused only on listening can bring feeling of doing a job to me, which is not always enjoyable.
But of course there is an optimum sweetspot nevertheless...
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With some morning coffee, I don't think RFZ would be practical in my family room without hitting somebody face also given it is a narrow space. May be just on the roof.
Hemi anechoic ( on the roof)! Such a great experience. The first generation of Hidley's room came from a night were they setted up a pair of Westlake ( Hidley's own brand of loudspeakers) on the roof of a studio for a party. He was blown away by rendering.
Another example of what you'll read of a no no is Blackbird studio C also known as Massenburg's room. Georges Massenburg implemented a fully diffusive room with help from D'antonio ( RPG owner). In theory it is a no no but in practice it works if implemented with a non repetitive sequence ( random)... Pano experienced something similar in his 'lava cave' when he lived in Hawaii...
https://blackbirdstudio.com/portfolio/studio-c/
Krevilplays, really send me an email i can send you some e-books and references to read on the subject. 🙂
Another example of what you'll read of a no no is Blackbird studio C also known as Massenburg's room. Georges Massenburg implemented a fully diffusive room with help from D'antonio ( RPG owner). In theory it is a no no but in practice it works if implemented with a non repetitive sequence ( random)... Pano experienced something similar in his 'lava cave' when he lived in Hawaii...
https://blackbirdstudio.com/portfolio/studio-c/
Krevilplays, really send me an email i can send you some e-books and references to read on the subject. 🙂
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Although this what my roof already looks like with some decay elements and FR treatment(airgap sandwiched treatment between thin 2 inch absorption). All these did bring positive changes in listening as these changes were all incremental. So there will be some rework if I dare to do any changes. I think we will continue further in PM without deviating much on this topic.
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Hi, I'm very much aligned what you say on the quote. I get bit Orwellian vibe from your message though, like you were protecting something my deducing offends? All I have is my experience, we all have our experience, which we all base our communication on. Hopefully we all do our own thinking, and base the thinking on reality we observe and that is available to us, and not to reality fed to us by others. Everyone should know they are reading the internets.
Don't worry, I've been listening to everything that I have access to, it's just isn't that special on this neck of the woods, but still very interesting.
You must live in some city of >10000000 people to have heard a true ribbon. Or built it yourself. In my residences of 2000000 (Louisville) and 4000000 (Houston) I have heard 2 ways woofer + CD (VOT & JBL in theaters, Peavey at dealer), 3 ways with diaphragm tweeter (AR3, KLH5 at hifi store) only on vocal+acoustic guitar, 4 and 5 ways with dot tweeters at the Rental furniture store on Rap (vile), and Klipschhorn (only trumpet bass drum jazz). Brown Theater has Meyersound which may be MEH and are just okay on ballet, having screechy violins. Best Buy stocks full range Polks but never demonstrates them. I've heard 5.5" full range in projection TV's (just okay). Of the 6 designs I prefer the 2 way woofer plus CD, with superior bass from the 15" woofer versions. Woofer + CD 2 ways are specified for DI (dispersion 6 db) of 40 deg vertical and 60-90 deg horizontal, and when mounted overhead pointing down, sound good sitting standing or walking around over a wide area. Nobody in 55 years of shopping and listening has demonstrated a ribbon tweeter, or even a silk dome. The hifi stores all died about 1985. Circuit City only demonstrated ****. Why would I have bought a ribbon or AMT without hearing it? To keep up with the Jones?
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Nope, just keep thinking about the experiments you're doing but don't assume to much. Do every experiment at least twice (with plenty of time in-between) before drawing any type of conclusion. What you experience with your setup/listening conditions, your room is valid for your setup/listening conditions, your room. But don't try to take your findings and make them universal. Most of all, don't assume, vary only one variable at a time and make sure you can get repeatable results. Doing that you can draw conclusions that are valid to your specific setup and circumstances. Nothing more, nothing less. So much of this stuff depends on outside factors, go experiment with some DSP, see how you can change perception in numerous ways just by making what seem like changes. I know you are studying how to hear. Try and hear each room your enter, close your eyes and try to hear room size and your position in that room, how that alters what you hear. Using that knowledge makes you able to change what you perceive at home. Find little stuff to make your setup better. Just don't even begin to try and make it universal, like this DI will sound like that etc. Because it all depends.
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They’re an old pair of Classic 2‘s given to us by an NHT rep years ago. We purchased a set of their monitors and Sub Amp with stereo subs and the rep gave us a demo pair. We still use that sub amp and subs to this day. Looks like NHT used SEAS drivers back then
So ADAMs definitely use AMT or air motion transformer tweeters……you can tell by the horizontal pleats which function much like bellows as the element moves inside of its magnetic cap…….nothing like Ribbons from LCY, RAAL, Fountek and a few others. There’s a few other ‘ribbon type tech’ designs out there….Planar Magnetic and the like. True ribbons create a very low impedance and feature a built in transformer on the chassis with heat sinks.
Except for the ultra expensive, all AMTs either rolloff after 12k off axis…..some on axis as well. True ribbons are pretty linear out past 20k to 60 degrees. The extremely light and delicate membrane has its limitations though…..they simply cannot play low and are extremely prone to cabinet resonance…..when i see them rigidly mounted to a baffle with woofers I cringe.
That got me thinking.
Probably my new venture/experiments should be in another room(music room?) keeping this as a reference as I don't want to make any drastic changes here and loose the sound I like now.
Even my panels have been prototype like, modular, stackable and frameless during initial experimental stages. So I could test diffrent thickness, locations etc. and appreciate difference in listening as well as measurements.
Finally now settling and enjoying, may be time to frame evrything and potentially avoid the undo/redo cycle. Any changes should be incremental upgrades over current one.
Any new personal learning from other room that could be room independent can be implemented here too.
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