Does anyone have regular communication with Iván from Athos Audio? He hasn't replied to emails for at least a week now, but used to respond within a day. The last email from him was saying he was getting ready to ship my horns last Monday and that he would send tracking info. Getting a little nervous now...
These small custom shops seem to all run this way...I wouldn't sweat it....other than the disservice of bad customer service... I'd be pretty confident you are going to get your horns.... I was delayed almost a year past expectations by my horn builder LHM....and the same was true for my woofers from Acoustic Elegance... small shops just don't have the power to move as smoothly from purchase to product, as the big manufactures...but they do seem to be committed to quality, as thats all they have, to lure in the next customer....
I have very limited knowledge on all of this but would Troy Crowe's version of the 290-and which don't include vanes ("dispersion fins")-offer multiple performance advantages?
https://josephcrowe.com/products/3d-cad-plans-for-es-290-biradial-horn-horn-no-1670
The vanes are not the origin of the set of trade-offs I wrote about earlier, their effect is secondary. The constant is the horn loading profile.
To contrast this, waveguiding theory tends to set aside horn loading to focus on the wavefront integrity (controlled diffraction) from a more open and consistent profile.
When you focus on horn loading the narrow but expanding profile trades off directivity instead, and by forcing desirable horizontal directivity, the compromise falls in the vertical dimension.
To contrast this, waveguiding theory tends to set aside horn loading to focus on the wavefront integrity (controlled diffraction) from a more open and consistent profile.
When you focus on horn loading the narrow but expanding profile trades off directivity instead, and by forcing desirable horizontal directivity, the compromise falls in the vertical dimension.
Hi there,
even though some of my findings can be found in other threads here i want to summarize my findings here. I have tried a longer time ago this here, now i changed to this here:
The directivity for the high range frequencies lets say from 3 to 20 kHz did not work for me in the first attempt, with such a large horn mouth you will have a laser cannon for the high range regardless of the driver you use - for me it worked only after introducing a small horn for the high range - but good luck anyway!
- Stefano
even though some of my findings can be found in other threads here i want to summarize my findings here. I have tried a longer time ago this here, now i changed to this here:
The directivity for the high range frequencies lets say from 3 to 20 kHz did not work for me in the first attempt, with such a large horn mouth you will have a laser cannon for the high range regardless of the driver you use - for me it worked only after introducing a small horn for the high range - but good luck anyway!
- Stefano
While the following text repeats questions on the performance impact of vanes, I do so based on Eso's claims regarding sound stage:
Subject: Crowe ES290 or Athos 4001 horns for My Build & Room?
This week Troy Crowe delivered wonderful measurements on my Great Plains Altec 416-8B midwoofers. https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/altec-416-8b-in-100l-sealed
My original plans were to go with the 4001 horns. https://www.athosaudio.com/2021/01/01/tad-th-4001/
My drivers are these Yamahas
But in the above review of the Altecs, Troy mentioned a forthcoming test with them using his ES290 horns. https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/es-290-biradial-polar-off-axis
So, for that and other reasons I'm hoping that enough here are experienced with both the 4001 horn and at least the original (not Troy's) 290 horn to advise which one might be best for use with my drivers, midwoofers and room size.
My room is 20 ft x 11 and then across a 3.5 x 15 ft hallway into a small kitchen. The entire ceiling is triangular, peaks at 11 ft and slopes down to 8 ft. The only windows are three draped 2.5 x 3.5 ft bay windows at one end of the long wall. The room is largely empty, save for a 16" tall glass table for my pc and a low back upholstered swivel chair. That and the thin pile wall to wall carpeting probably accounts for the faint echo in the room.
Kevin, post #33, said the 290's were almost too small for his room; my room's slightly bigger. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...-inch-horn-you-can-actually-buy.390519/page-2
One concern is what's been said pro and con about the "vanes", which both the 290 and 4001 horns were originally designed with. Eso says here on post # 145, https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...ompression-drivers-a-discussion.397699/page-8 “………….Many years ago I built a pair of Yuichi A290 radial horns to play with. They are an exceptional radial design with performance very similar to the TAD TH-4001. But I don't like horns with vanes in them for hifi; I find they do great at even horizontal coverage, but the soundstage flattens as a result…………"
OTOH, kevinKR, AllenB and profiguy (posts # 8, 36) all know about how vanes impact sound quality parameters, and the consensus seems to be that it’s better to have the vanes than not, here
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...-inch-horn-you-can-actually-buy.390519/page-2 and on the preceding page.
But Troy Crowe’s version of the 290 horn apparently has no vanes nor any throat adapter.
https://josephcrowe.com/products/es-290-biradial-wood-horn
https://josephcrowe.com/products/3d-cad-plans-for-es-290-biradial-horn-horn-no-1670
https://www.instagram.com/p/B5VlUlj...d&ig_rid=a2bfbcd5-b7af-4e17-8fbf-2d8c4f895463So, if the measurements of these 290 horns impress you enough to own them, how likely would you choose them over the 4001 if you had my room size to maximize performance parameters?
x and y off-axis response
3D sound stage size
imaging
sound stage size vs. frequency
low distortion
OR would choose the 4001 horns for use with my 6681B drivers and sealed Altec midwoofers? If so, why?
And with or without vanes?
Regarding placement, Pierre said that the 4001 horns will sound best on the long wall.
Where best to place the 290 horns?
Sorry, I wasn't watching this thread closely and didn't realize how long its been since I last posted.
I did receive my horns a few weeks later, but the whole process was a big hassle, especially getting the guy paid with a wire transfer. He's in Hungary and the banks don't like to talk with each other very well. The guy was nice enough to send the horns while I figured out the insanity of getting the money to him via his preferred payment method. The credit card company didn't let the charge go through for whatever reason and the whole thing turned into a nightmare for me.
I received the horns slightly dinged up on two of the corners despite the packaging being reinforced with plywood and steel corners. The people who handled the package didn't care too much because of the weight. I had to fix the corners myself and Athos knocked 50 dollars off the price. The horns were coated with a clear type of urethane, but not very evenly and just a thin coat. The machine work looks good, but the finishing is average for the price I paid.
I hsd to put the project on hold due to health reasons and honestly, I don't know if I'll ever finish it the way things are going for me. The horns are sitting in a corner right now collecting dust. Unfortunately I sort of lost interest after all the hassle of getting them here, plus I would have to refinish them to get then looking the way I expected them to in the first place.
I'll try to find the pictures of them when I get a chance.
I did receive my horns a few weeks later, but the whole process was a big hassle, especially getting the guy paid with a wire transfer. He's in Hungary and the banks don't like to talk with each other very well. The guy was nice enough to send the horns while I figured out the insanity of getting the money to him via his preferred payment method. The credit card company didn't let the charge go through for whatever reason and the whole thing turned into a nightmare for me.
I received the horns slightly dinged up on two of the corners despite the packaging being reinforced with plywood and steel corners. The people who handled the package didn't care too much because of the weight. I had to fix the corners myself and Athos knocked 50 dollars off the price. The horns were coated with a clear type of urethane, but not very evenly and just a thin coat. The machine work looks good, but the finishing is average for the price I paid.
I hsd to put the project on hold due to health reasons and honestly, I don't know if I'll ever finish it the way things are going for me. The horns are sitting in a corner right now collecting dust. Unfortunately I sort of lost interest after all the hassle of getting them here, plus I would have to refinish them to get then looking the way I expected them to in the first place.
I'll try to find the pictures of them when I get a chance.
I don't recall saying that and I don't think you really can say that. It depends on what you do with them, and how.. not just whether you use them or not. I'm sure I've implied that but maybe it needed to be stated more clearly.
I think your trouble is you're trying to relate physical features of horns to sound qualities, like soundstage. You can't just say this feature will do that.
You first need to identify the causes of things, for example that imaging is improved by selective control of reflections. You then need to identify what causes that, for example the shape and size of the horn. You need to refine that by identifying secondary features such as what frequency it loses control, or what shape the wavefront takes.
Hi, what makes soundstage flatten? I assume flattening means it goes from some kind of 3D to more 2D perception.
I'm not sure what actually makes it, but with my system sound flattens to 2D if I listen too far from the speakers and I don't have either of those horns!
Anyway, the change in perceived effect hints that when the sound flattens hearing system is not fooled anymore, perhaps because some information in the sound (recording) turned into noise and brain cannot decode it properly anymore, brain is not fooled anymore, which hints towards direct/reflected sound ratio is too high or some other process loses the information. And there seems to be quite small distance where the perception change happens, audible critical distance: One step closer and brain is able to make more enveloping 3D kind of perception, or one step further and it's flatter 2D in front of me kind of thing.
Anyway, I guess same thing could happen if the speaker loses the information before the room has anything to do with it. If this happens changing a speaker/parts of speaker, one must know what the listening distance is, how the speaker interacts with the room, and was the listener aware of how room affects things? It could have been they listened at varying distance, it could be the positioning changed, could be multiple things other than some property on the speaker itself.
If the devices are fine without issues, and sound changed due to positioning of things, how do you know which device is better unless you knew the position affected the perception? You don't, unless audible critical distance was found and both systems adjusted that in mind. Both could sound the same, if positioning was adjusted. Judging from photos of speakers, many people listen beyond critical distance in which case the "soundstage" is heavily dependent on early reflections, which makes directivity matter a lot, which would mean positioning is very important factor.
Anyway, the point is likely either could perform quite similarly in this regard if you can freely adjust positioning for optimal sound. If the other one sounds worse than the other regardless of the position then you'd be quite sure which one to get. Question is what is your room acoustics, and what you want to hear, and how freely you can position the system, and then choosing a system that helps you to achieve it. Any two systems sound different due to many reasons and not just one like vanes or not, especially if the other was designed not to have them. I bet both horns were designed for maximal sound quality in mind, but absolute quality depends on how you compare.
Unless you are absolutely sure about context of others who review such devices, and what is your context to be absolutely sure how their context relates to yours, it's impossible to know which device works for you in your context. From this there is only one way to answer your pondering, you must try them both if you want to find out. It might turn out neither of those is good one for you in your current context.
Hi, yeah beaming highs is not ideal.
I gotta comment that horn mouth has nothing to do with high frequency coverage though. It's the throat diameter and shape of the waveguide/horn profile that determines high frequency directivity. You could keep mouth size constant and have complete freedom to change directivity of the device on high frequencies up until throat diameter frequencies just by adjusting profile of the horn/waveguide, depth and curvature. Above throat diameter wavelength the responses is more or less chaotic, could be optimized as well if you knew shape of the exiting wavefront from the driver. Mouth size determines how low in frequency the directivity is controlled, and shape would determine diffraction.
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