Danley Signature Series

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hornsteff

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Joined 2010
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Hi Again

Over on Klipsch-community ChrisA, the father of the K402MEH; pointed at the "small" dimensions of the the horn in the Hyperion and its loss of patern-control well above Schroeder-frequency in most rooms. He is kind of saying that it won´t use the full potential of the technology. ChrisA argues, that most people have NOT experienced the benefits of having pattern-contol all the way down to Schroeder-frequency, because most people (and their wife´s) can´t or won´t accept a horn of really big dimensions in their living-room. So people don´t know, what they miss!

An other complaint about the Hyperion is, that you can´t put it up against the wall or in a corner and use the boundery-gain in a narrow room, also reducing early reflections. Tom Danley many years ago wrote here on diyaudio, that he was listening to his SH50 speakers in a rather narrow room, and that he had put them against the wall, kind of using the walls as mirrors and producing a wide soundstage (If I recall correctly). The horn-wall and the room-wall being parallel, so that the tweeter could not "see" the sidewall, hence reducing early reflections.

Bottomline for me: I will still keep on DIY-ing, ripping all the expensive and somewhat compromised commercial products for all the good ideas. Combining the best ideas and going to extremes where I can to fulfill potential.

By the way. The Hyperion is completely consistent with, what Tom Danley has proposed as his idea for a Home-version here on diyaudio many years back! He proposed to use the SM60F and he said he would use closed box woofers.

Steffen
 
H

hornsteff

Member
Joined 2010
Paid Member
And hi again ;-)

ChrisA has proposed to me, to build a synergy-horn big enough to reach far down in frequency, so that it can be combined with a subwoofer within a 1/4 wave-lenght! That would mean to cross as low as 60-80 Hz. Hence combining coherently.

That is somehow what Tom Danley did with his Hyperion, crossing at 45 Hz from synergy to the subs!

Have a nice day

Steffen
 
M

mark100

Member
Joined 2010
fluid said:
Perhaps you have not seen this thread before ?

Bookshelf Synergy with a 6.5" Coax in a reflex box



It doesn't lend itself to flat wooden panels and works better when the H and V are the same or even better when the horn is axisymmetric.
Click to expand...

I had not seen that, thanks.

It would be neat to see that printed to accommodate mounting additional low mids, ala the sm60f.
I guess as is, the gains over the simple coax alone are increased SPL and some lower directivity. Very nice project !
 
krivium

krivium

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Joined 2009
Paid Member
hornsteff said:
He is kind of saying that it won´t use the full potential of the technology. ChrisA argues, that most people have NOT experienced the benefits of having pattern-contol all the way down to Schroeder-frequency, because most people (and their wife´s) can´t or won´t accept a horn of really big dimensions in their living-room. So people don´t know, what they miss!

An other complaint about the Hyperion is, that you can´t put it up against the wall or in a corner and use the boundery-gain in a narrow room, also reducing early reflections. Tom Danley many years ago wrote here on diyaudio, that he was listening to his SH50 speakers in a rather narrow room, and that he had put them against the wall, kind of using the walls as mirrors and producing a wide soundstage (If I recall correctly). The horn-wall and the room-wall being parallel, so that the tweeter could not "see" the sidewall, hence reducing early reflections.
Click to expand...

Schroeder frequency of 250hz is not uncommon in EU typical room. That said the Hyperion will be 'big' in a room like that...

So with a bigger room a bit leaky it'll left what... something like an octave not treated by the horn approximately? I think i could live with that compromise.

I find unfair the complaint about not locating them upon a wall. I suppose this is related to the port output ( which i understand is located on the floor from the technical drawing -the space between feet and bottom plate of loudspeaker and hole located in the middle of the bottom plate of sub cavity- but i'm confused as i think i've read they use closed box for low end which i don't know how they could give the claimed spl this way...)?

If someone diy upon the principle used one could use front port and compensate for room gain through dsp for onwall application.

For corner location ( here again if diy) one could use a corner located horn loading subwoofer 'a la' Pispeaker Pi7 and call it a day. And this correspond to the placement W. Payrahm describe in his white paper too.

Don't get me wrong i respect a lot ChrisA and the work he did with his MEH and knowledge he had shared, but this can be questioned. ;)
 
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H

hornsteff

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Hi krivium

I think my writing was not precise enough. It was NOT a complaint about wall-placement issues, just a comment from someone having his SH50´s up against the side-walls and enjoying that . AND it was NOT ChrisA complaining ore commenting on that issue. Just to be fair here!

I believe that the Hyperion has a SM60F-"core" turned on the side, making it have a square footprint instead of a triangular one as usual. probably more practical in combination with a dual-opposed bas sub-cabinet!?

Steffen
 
M

mark100

Member
Joined 2010
hornsteff said:
Hi Again

Over on Klipsch-community ChrisA, the father of the K402MEH; pointed at the "small" dimensions of the the horn in the Hyperion and its loss of patern-control well above Schroeder-frequency in most rooms. He is kind of saying that it won´t use the full potential of the technology. ChrisA argues, that most people have NOT experienced the benefits of having pattern-contol all the way down to Schroeder-frequency, because most people (and their wife´s) can´t or won´t accept a horn of really big dimensions in their living-room. So people don´t know, what they miss!
Click to expand...


I can agree with ChrisA about folks probably having not experienced pattern control down to Schroeder (for the reason stated)
But from my experiments achieving that pattern control, i think he makes a bit too much of it. I think the audible improvements are room and particularly room-volume dependent.


Here's a larger synergy that has horiz pattern control to 190Hz. (49"wide)
It has removable secondary flares that when off, reduce horiz pattern control to 260 Hz. (36" wide)
I can listen to it either way, quite happily.
syn7 right.jpg

It crosses to sub at 100Hz, which is right at 1/4WL c-2-c, on top of the PPSL sub as shown.
For seated listening, on a standard vented sub without a cavity over the driver, 1/4WL c-2-c tightens up to 160Hz.
So far, i think keeping c-2-c within 1/4WL, syn to sub, has mattered more than the mouth sizes.



Can't see why the Hyperion couldn't work in a corner, as long as it points out diagonally from the corner so one of the sub drivers isn't against the wall...heck, it might work/load best there ? Might even need to turn down the bass lol.

Totally agree with your take the Hyperion is consistent with what TomD has been saying all along. He is one heck of a straight-shooter, genuine nice guy, in my strong opinion.
 
krivium

krivium

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Joined 2009
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Hi Steffen,
I took the comment about Schroeder frequency from ChrisA not really the rest ( from previous discussion i had with him here i know the guy know his stuff and could find a way around the complaints).
My comment was just to be clear on my pov... which wasn't accurate about the Pispeaker corner sub too:
One could make a synergy/meh and use a corner loaded sub instead of the 2x18" on Hyperion. In Pi7 they go up to 300hz and overlap with his mid horn. Same thing could be attempted too. There will probably be a 'grey area' where the directivity control wouldn't be as 'strict'/'good' as a typical horn but you could have a better management of floor bounce as a trade of.

Mark yes 1/4 WL is one of the rule of thumb i think should be applied every time possible.
Omg each time i see pictures of system like that i salivate! OH weird is a loudspeaker addict isn't it?! (Think Homer Simpson daydreamin' about donuts!) :D
 
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V

Vathek

Member
Joined 2006
Since this is a DSP speaker and the horn is axi-symmetric one could use a cardioid (sub)woofer below and get directivity control to maybe 50Hz (the Genelec w371a comes to mind). But with a 400 or so Hz crossover you lose the pointsource much higher, but that would be an intriguing concept as well. As usual it's a question of priorities.
 
V

Vathek

Member
Joined 2006
Yes, but they're true subwoofers and can't play up to where the horn loses its pattern. Probably a 'mechanical' cardioid could be built that does, but I like the simplicity and DIY-friendliness of the digital Genelec approach.

But my idea is progably a little off anyway, I mean why build a 3-way MEH in the first place when you're going to cross that high. Clearly Tom Danley chose pointsource behaviour over pattern control in the lower midrange. And I would actually agree on that choice, so never mind my comment... lol
 
Soldermizer

Soldermizer

Member
Joined 2012
Thanks for the link to the Audio Science Review thread. At the risk of blowing my own horn (pun intended), Danley's comments about the SM-60 not being quite ideal with passive crossover ( post # 107) validates my existing "poor man's Synergy" (a Yorkville Unity U15) run active, with DSP to taste. I'm not the first to say it, but DSP makes things a lot easier. By no means do I denigrate what Danley has accomplished. He is a great asset to this hobby. I understand most of the arguments for passive due to demand, business needs, but for me, I'll probably never go back to passives at home, at least for DIY efforts.


I suspect that the tinkerer with DSP and/or active amplification, basic test gear (REW or better) and some patience can tweak a pair of SM-60 and get superior results to the stock SM-60. However, it's one thing to rip the guts out of a speaker bought used for about $300 each (the crossovers were blown anyway) and quite another to butcher a brand-new $3000 speaker, in the goal of converting it to active.
 
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diyiggy

diyiggy

Disabled Account
Joined 2019
mark100 said:
Ok, trying to guess more about the Hyperion.

I'm thinking the top section is very similar to the SM-60F...both appear to have a 5" coaxial, and two 8" drivers. We can see both mid-range ports and reflex ports for the 8 inchers.

In the lower section, I love the opposed side firing 15" sub drivers. Big time vibration reduction.
I think the reason for the feet is what appears to be incorporating a downward firing reflex port.

Whether that Hyperion sub take is correct or not, i think side-firing opposed, with downward reflex port, is a great idea.
Less volume needed than my current clamshell slot loaded subs (no slot volume needed). And the box height could make make reflex port length much easier to fit in, for going lower.
Opposed firing sub drivers are simply a must imho.
Click to expand...


Damn, it's a sorta of Kef 104/2 on steroids ! Cooool !:clown: :)


Is the hyperion horn flare a Danley's or a shelf one drilled for the proto ?


The cabinet looks like (there is some logic when it comes to cabinets in home areas) what the great Baslow made as well years ago !
 
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