Not really, in theory it leaves the throat summed within a 1/4 WL of the XO point, i.e. point source, which the pioneers empirically found to be 'close enough' to a perfect summation [p27]: How To Build Speaker Enclosures By Alexix Badmaieff & Don Davis : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
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You're talking about phase response--if talking about an MEH...and a positive convergence distance if talking about a multiple-aperture loudspeaker, like a non-MEH multiway loudspeaker with vertical offset distances between drivers which are not acoustically summed internally.
Otherwise, all you're measuring is air acoustic properties over increasing distances--with boundary effects (the ground, etc.).
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Hi Erin, thank you very much for the work you've done, and sharing your results. And thanks to DSL for their willingness to provide a sample.
Quick question.... with your measurements, what is "On-Axis" referenced to?
I'd think actual 0 deg H and 0 deg V like commonly done?
I ask because i've found from measuring and tuning maybe a dozen different large synergy DIY builds at dead on 0 deg H and 0 deg vertical, that it is a lousy axis to tune to, and to compare polars to.
It's been the worst behaved axis inside of +/- 20 degrees, no matter what H vs V pattern the build was.
Does Kippel allow easy display of using one of the off-axis captures as reference and normalizing to it? (I typically tune the straight sided conicals at 10 deg off H.)
One thing i really wish, is that we would all relax a little about measurements...imho we are taking them way too seriously by peering into them too deeply and with too much resolution.
I say this as a speaker measurement freak....i don't know how many thousands of transfers I've taken over the last half-dozen years, most of them outdoors like you were doing.
I just try to stay the pragmatic measurement freak, that knows no matter what how the speaker measures on paper, sometimes the box just has to be heard.
Earl Geddes has remarked that dead on-axis mouth bounce is an issue: worst with round mouths, least with rectangular:
See: "on-axis null" in horn speakers?
This means that you really don't want to measure or listen exactly on-axis if using round-mouth horns, etc., like Mark mentioned. Off-axis a little is typically better/smoother for all horns.
Chris
See: "on-axis null" in horn speakers?
This means that you really don't want to measure or listen exactly on-axis if using round-mouth horns, etc., like Mark mentioned. Off-axis a little is typically better/smoother for all horns.
Chris
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Mark100, Erin shares off-axis measurements at his homepage Danley Sound Labs SH-50 Professional Audio Speaker Review
Off-axis responses have practically same wiggles as on-axis - unlike typical tweeter waveguides. And yes throughout the range and xo areas, which is really exceptional This makes SH speakers very easy to eq more flat. Distortion is not so smooth, specially at the "problematic" 900-1kHz range.
I've followed MEH diy threads for more than ten years, and have a friend who made a pair (Legis). I have all the time been a little worried about the "unity" of phase claim, because location of driver membranes, vents and acoustic pathlengths must be matched with xo frequency, but there is always some ovelap. And when xo frequency or slope(s) are changed, summation will change. Basically same problem as with any multiway speaker type. A coaxial compression driver is superior in this aspect, but can't go as low as MEH.
It is often claimed that perfect summation of drivers happens inside the horn, but now Erin says it takes 1-1,5 meters. When one puts her/his head inside the horn, the sound doesn't change, and off-axis has same tonality, but this perception is dominated by frequency response unity, not phase unity (IMO)
Avantgarde Acoustics Zero (3-way with two horns and dsp) measures surprisingly well with nice step response Avantgarde Acoustic Zero 1 Messungen - FIDELITY online but is not a PA speaker naturally.
Off-axis responses have practically same wiggles as on-axis - unlike typical tweeter waveguides. And yes throughout the range and xo areas, which is really exceptional This makes SH speakers very easy to eq more flat. Distortion is not so smooth, specially at the "problematic" 900-1kHz range.
I've followed MEH diy threads for more than ten years, and have a friend who made a pair (Legis). I have all the time been a little worried about the "unity" of phase claim, because location of driver membranes, vents and acoustic pathlengths must be matched with xo frequency, but there is always some ovelap. And when xo frequency or slope(s) are changed, summation will change. Basically same problem as with any multiway speaker type. A coaxial compression driver is superior in this aspect, but can't go as low as MEH.
It is often claimed that perfect summation of drivers happens inside the horn, but now Erin says it takes 1-1,5 meters. When one puts her/his head inside the horn, the sound doesn't change, and off-axis has same tonality, but this perception is dominated by frequency response unity, not phase unity (IMO)
Avantgarde Acoustics Zero (3-way with two horns and dsp) measures surprisingly well with nice step response Avantgarde Acoustic Zero 1 Messungen - FIDELITY online but is not a PA speaker naturally.
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Hi Erin, thank you very much for the work you've done, and sharing your results. And thanks to DSL for their willingness to provide a sample.
Quick question.... with your measurements, what is "On-Axis" referenced to?
I'd think actual 0 deg H and 0 deg V like commonly done?
I ask because i've found from measuring and tuning maybe a dozen different large synergy DIY builds at dead on 0 deg H and 0 deg vertical, that it is a lousy axis to tune to, and to compare polars to.
It's been the worst behaved axis inside of +/- 20 degrees, no matter what H vs V pattern the build was.
Does Kippel allow easy display of using one of the off-axis captures as reference and normalizing to it? (I typically tune the straight sided conicals at 10 deg off H.)
One thing i really wish, is that we would all relax a little about measurements...imho we are taking them way too seriously by peering into them too deeply and with too much resolution.
I say this as a speaker measurement freak....i don't know how many thousands of transfers I've taken over the last half-dozen years, most of them outdoors like you were doing.
I just try to stay the pragmatic measurement freak, that knows no matter what how the speaker measures on paper, sometimes the box just has to be heard.
From my writeup (which Juhazi already linked above):
I posted the groundplane vs anechoic response earlier.
Hope that helps.
I want to point this out (from my written review) because I, too, am not sure how pertinent some of the measurements (namely, the CEA-2034 set) are to a pro-audio speaker. I mean, it helps give a baseline. But I really did my best to make it clear that this is a pro-audio speaker evaluated in a home-audio way. There will undoubtedly be gives and takes. I'm not making excuses for some of the effects we see in the data. But I think it is important to take a step back and consider the intended application and typical-use-case of the end user.
So, to quote myself from my review:
So, to quote myself from my review:
Erin said:
Thx, and yes..
I read your review and measurements closely.
My bad bringing up the the 0 deg axis measurement stuff....not the right time or level.
My guess is that eq of small wiggles can't be heard. 300-1kHz range obviously needs careful boost, and most likely some attenuation above 6kHz for indoor use. And my ears would jugde that!
The synergy stereo sound indoors is like wearing headphones, incredible clarity of minute details and artefacts in the recording. I get tired of that in a minute...
The synergy stereo sound indoors is like wearing headphones, incredible clarity of minute details and artefacts in the recording. I get tired of that in a minute...
In my opinion that depends on where the wiggles come from. The room will supply it's own wiggles, but this is anechoic data that will benefit from EQ.
Personally, due to the narrow pattern control I'd want to try ambience speakers or well placed diffusive panels with such a setup. That should get rid of the 'headphone modus'.
Personally, due to the narrow pattern control I'd want to try ambience speakers or well placed diffusive panels with such a setup. That should get rid of the 'headphone modus'.
A good photo of the new Danley HiFi speaker half way down this thread:
We Out Here Festival - Speakerplans.com Forums - Page 2
Also lots of other shots of Danley boxes. A friend of mine was there and said the sound was superb.
One interesting thing for me is that despite been molded the mouth termination is still dual slope conic whereas I would have thought a curve closer to Tractix would be superior.
We Out Here Festival - Speakerplans.com Forums - Page 2
Also lots of other shots of Danley boxes. A friend of mine was there and said the sound was superb.
One interesting thing for me is that despite been molded the mouth termination is still dual slope conic whereas I would have thought a curve closer to Tractix would be superior.
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My guess is that they have more than enough other work to keep them busy, and that domestic speakers, that look ugly from what I've seen, isn't a market all the people making decisions there are comfortable entering.
Brett, What is....a paraline>? Or should I say how does it function...I thought I was lookin at a large ribbon style driver....nope...
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