I think what he means is that asymmetric crossovers-one driver one slope, the other driver a different slope-is a lot more complicated than it sounds.
While you do see commercial speakers with them, and projects on the net, there are quite a few designers who are dead set against them.
Apparently there are all sorts of factors involved with them which I could not completely follow. I get the impression that asymmetrical crossovers are definitely Advanced Course stuff.
I thought he was takin a shot at my uneducated self. LOL sorry.
So what driver should I choose, I really like the higher sensitivty and lower impedance of the dayton bs130-4, but will it overpower the TB?
And if thats the case, should I aim for similar sensitivity, i.e. the Silver Dayton?
I like that one going further flatter down also. so what 3-4 hz, it just helps to make sure all the music will be heard..
Also, the looks of the silver dayton are good to match with the TB. But I think crossover price will determine this above all.
So what frequency and slope do we want?
So what driver should I choose, I really like the higher sensitivty and lower impedance of the dayton bs130-4, but will it overpower the TB?
And if thats the case, should I aim for similar sensitivity, i.e. the Silver Dayton?
I like that one going further flatter down also. so what 3-4 hz, it just helps to make sure all the music will be heard..
Also, the looks of the silver dayton are good to match with the TB. But I think crossover price will determine this above all.
So what frequency and slope do we want?
Speaking of measuring equipment, it is possible for you to get some measuring equipment at relatively little final cost.
You can download a freeware tone generator at:
www.satsignal.net => Audio Tools this will give you an audio signal, white noise, or whatever.
An inexpensive cord can hook up your sound card to an amp, or if your sound card has a speaker out, (mine does-4 watts), an inexpensive cord can hook your sound card up to your speakers.
You can "rent" a Radio Shack SPL meter-buy it then return it in less than 30 days, lol. And Radio Shack has a mic element which you can use to do some measuring for cheap. The only problem with that mic element is that it has a response peak at 4,000 Hz or so, but that is way, way above the range you will be crossing over . I haven't used it for measuring, but it can be used.
You can download a freeware tone generator at:
www.satsignal.net => Audio Tools this will give you an audio signal, white noise, or whatever.
An inexpensive cord can hook up your sound card to an amp, or if your sound card has a speaker out, (mine does-4 watts), an inexpensive cord can hook your sound card up to your speakers.
You can "rent" a Radio Shack SPL meter-buy it then return it in less than 30 days, lol. And Radio Shack has a mic element which you can use to do some measuring for cheap. The only problem with that mic element is that it has a response peak at 4,000 Hz or so, but that is way, way above the range you will be crossing over . I haven't used it for measuring, but it can be used.
Giving instructions on how to do a passive crossover is not an easy thing to do. I think Sreten has some ideas-I've always been pure trial and error.
Radio Shack #270-092 is the number of the mic element. You'll also need a 9V battery, a resistor and some wire.
Speaker Workshop is a program which helps you do passive crossovers. but it is a complicated program to set up. Those who use it insist it is really the way to do a passive crossover. You'll usually need to send away to digi-key to get the correct mic element, but the Radio Shack one might well be substituted for it for frequencies below 2000 Hz.
Radio Shack #270-092 is the number of the mic element. You'll also need a 9V battery, a resistor and some wire.
Speaker Workshop is a program which helps you do passive crossovers. but it is a complicated program to set up. Those who use it insist it is really the way to do a passive crossover. You'll usually need to send away to digi-key to get the correct mic element, but the Radio Shack one might well be substituted for it for frequencies below 2000 Hz.
One other suggestion, in addition to Sreten's. Madisound, Parts Express' big competitor, uses LspCAD to find the values for crossovers if you buy the drivers from them.
Since you will be buying the drivers from Parts Express, and they have an help desk, I would definitely ask them if they did the same thing. My guess is they will, but it's worth a toll-free call to find out.
Since you will be buying the drivers from Parts Express, and they have an help desk, I would definitely ask them if they did the same thing. My guess is they will, but it's worth a toll-free call to find out.
I went ahead and sent PE an email about how I purchased the drivers before, and plan to purchase a few more. They should respond within 24 hours, but its a weekend, so a little longer for them they said.
Okay. I'm not certain if email or direct phone contact via their 800 number was the best way. But let's see what comes of this.
What specifically did you ask them?
What specifically did you ask them?
Well, i said something along the lines of:
I purchased this many drivers awhile ago...
I plan on purchasing these other drivers soon...
Madisound offers crossover help....
Does partsexpress....
If so, how about a 500 hz xo for these drivers....
I purchased this many drivers awhile ago...
I plan on purchasing these other drivers soon...
Madisound offers crossover help....
Does partsexpress....
If so, how about a 500 hz xo for these drivers....
Relax said:
Hi,
no offence intended, just alluding to the complications added.
To get baffle step correction, target acoustic functions and
phase matching of offset drivers on a baffle the electrical
crossover of drivers is nearly always assymetrical.
The acoustic response is usually more symmetrical.
Explaining all the tradeoffs would take a book.
If you have no measuring equipment and intend to do it
by ear then the 8 ohm black dayton is the one. If more
BSC is needed you can knock back the TB a touch.
In this case a series first order @ ~ 500Hz.
You could fit an L-pad on the TB.
I'll also note common c/o services do not include BSC,
they use measure data on a large flat baffle, fine if
you intend to wall mount the drivers.
🙂/sreten.
Relax said:
What do I think ?
Its a pain in the proverbial when something is reposted from another thread.
morbo said:
owdi said:
Both of your comments refer to the use of a parallel 1st order crossover.
I recommended using a series 1st order c/o which does not have the problems you describe.
morbo said:
owdi said:
I also covered the baffle step issues in the oiginal thread.
Also the original thread was very specific about the size of
the driver, its low cost and the type of enclosure, for which
KelticWizard to his credit produced a number of results from
MJK worksheets.
I've also reposted under the original and suggest anyone
posts under that thread rather than this.
🙂/sreten.
Oops!
Relax:
I hope you have not started cutting the wood for that MLTL I recommended yet.
An MLTL for another driver was built according to the dimensions I recommended. These dimensions were based on the frequency response chart of that particular driver and enclosure, just as the dimensions I recommended for you was based on the frequency response chart alone.
The result? Great bass extension-the response went really low. Quality, however, was poor. The builder heard a "lack of control" and said the bass "sounded like a different instrument". Not good.
For a variety of reasons, which I won't go into unless specifically asked, I believe the fault lies not so much with the MLTL enclosure idea, but rather my execution of it.
There are other builders on this forum who have built MLTL's with success. I suggest you contact them.
Relax:
I hope you have not started cutting the wood for that MLTL I recommended yet.
An MLTL for another driver was built according to the dimensions I recommended. These dimensions were based on the frequency response chart of that particular driver and enclosure, just as the dimensions I recommended for you was based on the frequency response chart alone.
The result? Great bass extension-the response went really low. Quality, however, was poor. The builder heard a "lack of control" and said the bass "sounded like a different instrument". Not good.
For a variety of reasons, which I won't go into unless specifically asked, I believe the fault lies not so much with the MLTL enclosure idea, but rather my execution of it.
There are other builders on this forum who have built MLTL's with success. I suggest you contact them.
I am sorry Sreten, in this thread I believe we decided to start another thread later after decideing on the actual size and construction of the enclosure that I should start another thread about how to build the crossover.
So After deciding to go with Keltic wizard's MLTL and the Tang Band above, I thought we could move on to XO design.
Unfortuneatly, it seems that both of the threads have seem to taken the same course of the design requiring some total rethinking.
So After deciding to go with Keltic wizard's MLTL and the Tang Band above, I thought we could move on to XO design.
Unfortuneatly, it seems that both of the threads have seem to taken the same course of the design requiring some total rethinking.
Hi Relax,
I'm sorry if I appeared a litle shirty, but if you want to start another
thread related to just the crossover you need to explain this and
reference the original thread for details no longer to be discussed.
Regarding reworking the design :
The TB unit is low efficiency and has limited output capability.
Adding a monster bass unit won't really change these limitations.
I'd go here and read all the stuff on 3" drivers - there is plently :
http://www.zaphaudio.com/
I'd also take careful note of the filters used and how to c/o to a sub.
edit : note the clever use of home cinema amp features.
The intrinsic design of your cabinet layout is perfectly feasible.
Regarding your tall bass cabinet as a simple bass reflex you won't
go too far wrong, though it can be checked as a MJK MLTL also.
🙂/sreten.
I'm sorry if I appeared a litle shirty, but if you want to start another
thread related to just the crossover you need to explain this and
reference the original thread for details no longer to be discussed.
Regarding reworking the design :
The TB unit is low efficiency and has limited output capability.
Adding a monster bass unit won't really change these limitations.
I'd go here and read all the stuff on 3" drivers - there is plently :
http://www.zaphaudio.com/
I'd also take careful note of the filters used and how to c/o to a sub.
edit : note the clever use of home cinema amp features.
The intrinsic design of your cabinet layout is perfectly feasible.
Regarding your tall bass cabinet as a simple bass reflex you won't
go too far wrong, though it can be checked as a MJK MLTL also.
🙂/sreten.
Hi Relax,
if you've read the stuff at Zaphs site including the archived TB stuff,
the first question is are you going to use one of his filters ?
I would as in implementing baffle step the treble response is also improved.
The only reason I wouldn't do this is if amplifier power is limited.
If you do this then the next question is how are you intending to
crossover to the bass unit ? - as this affects your choice of bass unit.
🙂/sreten.
if you've read the stuff at Zaphs site including the archived TB stuff,
the first question is are you going to use one of his filters ?
I would as in implementing baffle step the treble response is also improved.
The only reason I wouldn't do this is if amplifier power is limited.
If you do this then the next question is how are you intending to
crossover to the bass unit ? - as this affects your choice of bass unit.
🙂/sreten.
Alright I have finally narrowed down which drivers i plan on using and How they will be used.
I am going to use the Tang Band w3-871S and the Vifa 18WG29-08.
Thanks to Scottmoose Especially, He created a TL for the Vifa.
I plan on running the VIfa from 20 on up to 500hz, then crossing over to the TB. (This point is negotiable.)
Sreten, you seem to know alot about XO design, I was earlier thinking about a 2nd order Bessel, but a series XO sounds to be the better way to go.
How would I design one for these drivers?
I plan on using the TB in a sealed enclosure just like the one on Zaph's site.
So the main questions:
1. Is a 2nd order Bessel fine?
2. Should I implement the TB notch filter?
3. If 2nd order Bessel is unacceptable, what should I do?
This is not exactly HiFi, just looking for a good clean sound from these two cheap drivers.
I am going to use the Tang Band w3-871S and the Vifa 18WG29-08.
Thanks to Scottmoose Especially, He created a TL for the Vifa.
I plan on running the VIfa from 20 on up to 500hz, then crossing over to the TB. (This point is negotiable.)
Sreten, you seem to know alot about XO design, I was earlier thinking about a 2nd order Bessel, but a series XO sounds to be the better way to go.
How would I design one for these drivers?
I plan on using the TB in a sealed enclosure just like the one on Zaph's site.
So the main questions:
1. Is a 2nd order Bessel fine?
2. Should I implement the TB notch filter?
3. If 2nd order Bessel is unacceptable, what should I do?
This is not exactly HiFi, just looking for a good clean sound from these two cheap drivers.
Alright, I read soem more on passive crossovers, and it seems at the 2nd order level anyways, Parralel is the way to go.
I have found several crossover calculators. I really just want to make a simple XO at 500 or so Hz. is it okay to fudge the values the calculators give me in order to be able to buy the parts?
I have found several crossover calculators. I really just want to make a simple XO at 500 or so Hz. is it okay to fudge the values the calculators give me in order to be able to buy the parts?
Hi,
Parallel is the way to go for 2nd order crossovers.
Series is the way to go for 1st order crossovers.
With those two drivers I'd use a 1st order crossover,
(though I can't find any specs for the Vifa)
as this will implement smooth baffle step correction.
I'd expect the c/o frequency needed to be around 500Hz.
🙂/sreten.
Parallel is the way to go for 2nd order crossovers.
Series is the way to go for 1st order crossovers.
With those two drivers I'd use a 1st order crossover,
(though I can't find any specs for the Vifa)
as this will implement smooth baffle step correction.
I'd expect the c/o frequency needed to be around 500Hz.
🙂/sreten.
So would you suggest the notch filter from Zaph's site and a 1st order XO?
Or would a 2nd order XO be enough?
The reason for the 2nd order, is for increased power handling above the XO point, Zaph recommended crossing over above 400hz with a 2nd order on his site.
Also, I am not sure I really need the notch, the drivers sound excellent in a simple sealed enclosure, and on a simple open baffle.
I have been able to find almost the exact parts needed for a 2nd order XO at 565 hz. I know it sounds like a weird number, but it results in inductor and capacitor values I can actually purchase from Partsexpress and the likes...
I am debating right now before I make the big purchase, I might just go 2nd order and notch filter parts, and then listen with and without the notch.
Or would a 2nd order XO be enough?
The reason for the 2nd order, is for increased power handling above the XO point, Zaph recommended crossing over above 400hz with a 2nd order on his site.
Also, I am not sure I really need the notch, the drivers sound excellent in a simple sealed enclosure, and on a simple open baffle.
I have been able to find almost the exact parts needed for a 2nd order XO at 565 hz. I know it sounds like a weird number, but it results in inductor and capacitor values I can actually purchase from Partsexpress and the likes...
I am debating right now before I make the big purchase, I might just go 2nd order and notch filter parts, and then listen with and without the notch.
Hi,
I do not suggest you use Zaph's notch filter with the two drivers.
It implements baffle step correction and subsequent treble boost.
As the Vifa is more efficient that the TB you will automatically
get some baffle step compensation if you c/o at around 500Hz.
To make this compensation smooth you should use a series
first order crossover, 2nd order will be too abrupt a change.
The series first order will take advantage of the Vifas inductance
rise and the TB bass resonance, both of these will enhance the
effect of the series first order crossover.
(They would "fight" the efect of a parallel first order crossover)
🙂/sreten.
I do not suggest you use Zaph's notch filter with the two drivers.
It implements baffle step correction and subsequent treble boost.
As the Vifa is more efficient that the TB you will automatically
get some baffle step compensation if you c/o at around 500Hz.
To make this compensation smooth you should use a series
first order crossover, 2nd order will be too abrupt a change.
The series first order will take advantage of the Vifas inductance
rise and the TB bass resonance, both of these will enhance the
effect of the series first order crossover.
(They would "fight" the efect of a parallel first order crossover)
🙂/sreten.
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