Ok, let's start all over again, since you say you are obsessed with
sensitivity. We usually start from the manufacturer measurements
which are 2 pi. Then we trace it with SPL tools, load it to a software
Response Modeler and define the baffle size of the desired cabinet.
Apply the baffle response to 2 pi graph and get a 4 pi( free space)
curve. After you calculate the minimum phase and model or trace
impedance as well, you load these two textual files to PCD and
play with the crossover parts. Very simple. As an example, Peerless
SDS 5,25" bassmid I have already traced so you get an idea what
is happening in general.
I have assumed the Zuhl simulated a single Peerless 6,5" unit and I have
seen the graph in the other thread that shows 86 dB, but this won't
work in reality. If I have missed anything, I apologize in advance.
sensitivity. We usually start from the manufacturer measurements
which are 2 pi. Then we trace it with SPL tools, load it to a software
Response Modeler and define the baffle size of the desired cabinet.
Apply the baffle response to 2 pi graph and get a 4 pi( free space)
curve. After you calculate the minimum phase and model or trace
impedance as well, you load these two textual files to PCD and
play with the crossover parts. Very simple. As an example, Peerless
SDS 5,25" bassmid I have already traced so you get an idea what
is happening in general.
I have assumed the Zuhl simulated a single Peerless 6,5" unit and I have
seen the graph in the other thread that shows 86 dB, but this won't
work in reality. If I have missed anything, I apologize in advance.
Attachments
I wish I knew how to model response like you were explaining; that would make things a whole lot easier. Luckily there's someone talented like you that can show me 
Does this mean that his crossover design won't work well and/or that the bass/midbass will be extremely subdued? I guess what I'm asking is for a second opinion regarding the crossover Zuhl designed for me and any changes that you might make.
Does this mean that his crossover design won't work well and/or that the bass/midbass will be extremely subdued? I guess what I'm asking is for a second opinion regarding the crossover Zuhl designed for me and any changes that you might make.
This is not the question of the talent, rather the will to do it.
IMO there is no need to hurry with the purchase, not before
you first get a grip on how the basic speaker design works.
Get yourself used to work with this program that turns measurements
(photos) into textual files:
SPL Tools
Take a shot and then come back to ask questions. The correctness
of traced curves depends only on you.
In regard to Zuhl's spl graph, I was only suggesting that sensitivity
for a single driver he used won't be 86 dB in free space. My job will
be to help you do the work yourself.
Try this one.
SPL Copy - Speaker Frequency Response Automatic Trace Tool
Have scanned the files, says no threats.
SPL Copy - Speaker Frequency Response Automatic Trace Tool
Have scanned the files, says no threats.
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sounds like you've already decided - we'll await your findings with interest
Lojzek, I haven't tried the new link yet. I've been really busy with classes this week.
On a different note, has anyone heard of Pi Speakers before? I was reading another thread and I came across this link to a company called Pi Speakers that sells high efficiency speaker kits for super cheap. I could snag a pair of towers or a ported bookshelf style (as a kit) for 100$ which boast a 95db sensitivity. What do you think?
On a different note, has anyone heard of Pi Speakers before? I was reading another thread and I came across this link to a company called Pi Speakers that sells high efficiency speaker kits for super cheap. I could snag a pair of towers or a ported bookshelf style (as a kit) for 100$ which boast a 95db sensitivity. What do you think?
I didn't like that Seismic 10" woofer you found. Vague specs, which might hide some High Le problems. 97dB and aluminium former I reckon.
I think we talked Pi Speakers earlier. I know what the filter is for the 2Pi, but Wayne gives it away himself, so we can respect that.
Which is why I suggested the Eminence 8A Alpha which is 93dB IIRC. Mainly because we know it can be done. It's actually a big problem finding a dome tweeter that goes loud enough.
I think we talked Pi Speakers earlier. I know what the filter is for the 2Pi, but Wayne gives it away himself, so we can respect that.
Efficient speakers that go loud, this uses a 92dB 8" PA woofer...
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/147632-classic-monitor-designs-25.html#post4428857
Wayne Parham uses Eminence Alpha 8A and 10A in his simplest models:
Pi Speakers - Product Line and Driver Complements
Along with this Vifa DX25TG59-04 tweeter:
Tymphany DX25TG59-04 1" Fabric Dome Tweeter
He'll email you a XO design. It's quite simple.
Which is why I suggested the Eminence 8A Alpha which is 93dB IIRC. Mainly because we know it can be done. It's actually a big problem finding a dome tweeter that goes loud enough.
I'm sorry, I didn't realize you had already linked it before. Does that mean the kit only includes the woofer, tweeter, and wood; you have to purchase the crossover parts separately? It still might be worth it depending on the crossover parts cost. How much do they typically cost?
Have you noticed that sensitivity at 1W/1m was taken from half space,
which means you have to subtract good 5dB to get a free space value.
For 100$ you get one Eminence Alpha 10, one Tymphany DX25TG59-04,
terminal, hook-up wire and printed plans. Additional costs for a crossover
filter and cabinet with everything needed to finish one pair could add up
over 300$. Something for you to investigate.
There has been a report, not so long time ago, of a satisfied customer
who bought the 100$ kit here in this forum.
Good luck with your project and school!
I was having a look at what 8" midbass is available on a budget in the US. Not much really.
The 8" 8 ohm Silver Flutes, which Odougbo uses a lot. And the pricier Scanspeak 22W/8534G00 Discovery 8" Woofer which Troels Gravesen uses in his 3 way: ScanSpeak-3W-Discovery
You could probably rig that woofer up with your 3.5" fullranger as mid in a homage. It's not far away from what he uses at 85dB. Or a two way crossing at about 3kHz on second order bass. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/147632-classic-monitor-designs-26.html#post4454879
The 2Pi project is here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/280841-wayne-parhams-2pi-towers.html
That uses a 10" bass with a tidy natural rolloff on a simple bass coil. First order tweeter. This is established territory. Wharfedale used a 12" in a similar way, with a second order tweeter. Maybe around 2.5kHz crossover.
Tekton use the Eminence Alpha 8A too. Me, I'm not a fan of huge bassy towers, and might reuse a smaller second-hand 1 cu foot cabinet in reflex in some way. Like the Visaton La Scala. These 8-12" speakers are all around 88-93dB. No replacement for displacement IMO. Much better sound than the tinies that a lot of people here build.
The 8" 8 ohm Silver Flutes, which Odougbo uses a lot. And the pricier Scanspeak 22W/8534G00 Discovery 8" Woofer which Troels Gravesen uses in his 3 way: ScanSpeak-3W-Discovery
You could probably rig that woofer up with your 3.5" fullranger as mid in a homage. It's not far away from what he uses at 85dB. Or a two way crossing at about 3kHz on second order bass. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/147632-classic-monitor-designs-26.html#post4454879
The 2Pi project is here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/280841-wayne-parhams-2pi-towers.html
That uses a 10" bass with a tidy natural rolloff on a simple bass coil. First order tweeter. This is established territory. Wharfedale used a 12" in a similar way, with a second order tweeter. Maybe around 2.5kHz crossover.
Tekton use the Eminence Alpha 8A too. Me, I'm not a fan of huge bassy towers, and might reuse a smaller second-hand 1 cu foot cabinet in reflex in some way. Like the Visaton La Scala. These 8-12" speakers are all around 88-93dB. No replacement for displacement IMO. Much better sound than the tinies that a lot of people here build.
Attachments
I was having a look at what 8" midbass is available on a budget in the US. Not much really.
The 8" 8 ohm Silver Flutes, which Odougbo uses a lot. And the pricier Scanspeak 22W/8534G00 Discovery 8" Woofer which Troels Gravesen uses in his 3 way: ScanSpeak-3W-Discovery
You could probably rig that woofer up with your 3.5" fullranger as mid in a homage. It's not far away from what he uses at 85dB. Or a two way crossing at about 3kHz on second order bass. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/147632-classic-monitor-designs-26.html#post4454879
The 2Pi project is here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/280841-wayne-parhams-2pi-towers.html
That uses a 10" bass with a tidy natural rolloff on a simple bass coil. First order tweeter. This is established territory. Wharfedale used a 12" in a similar way, with a second order tweeter. Maybe around 2.5kHz crossover.
Tekton use the Eminence Alpha 8A too. Me, I'm not a fan of huge bassy towers, and might reuse a smaller second-hand 1 cu foot cabinet in reflex in some way. Like the Visaton La Scala. These 8-12" speakers are all around 88-93dB. No replacement for displacement IMO. Much better sound than the tinies that a lot of people here build.
I've looked pretty extensively into the Silver flute line of drivers (mainly the 6.5"). So my choices are I could do the 2 Pi build (or 1 Pi build with the 8") or build something with the SilverFlute 8" driver and the Tymphany (Vifa) DX25 tweeter which I had initially planned to use anyways in my other build.
Eminence Alpha 8" or 10" with DX25
Or Silver Flute 8" with DX25, I know this won't save me a whole lot, but it might introduce greater fidelity compared to a Pro Audio woofer (granted I've never heard the Eminence Alpha's before so I don't know).
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True for Eminence alpha 10 and a XO point of just below 4 kHz.
Any other more appropriate XO point calls for a 2 nd order and
an additional impedance flattening. So, the higher quality solution in case
of alpha and tymphany has nothing to do with simple filters.
Simulation is a benefit like no other. Guessing is a matter of history.
I'm puzzled why newbies don't take the full advantage of it.
I do have the advantage of having built a speaker with the Eminence Alpha 8A back in the day when I knew sufficiently little to just have a go! I stuck them in 25L old Wharfedale Linton boxes which I found in a skip, gave it a 1.5" Audax TW034 dome tweeter and a second order off the shelf filter. It became clear that bass was lacking so I cut a hole for a 3" adjustable reflex tube. It ended up about 4" long with drinking straws as tube damper and went impressively loud on little power.
TBH, I was lucky in finding a pair of these PA woofers for £30 in an electrical junk shop in Fareham, Hampshire. Believe me, they are EXCELLENT! They could wake up the street, and in fact I did one night when a neighbouring party was keeping us awake at 2AM. 2 minutes of those babies playing Steppenwolf on my balcony and the neighbouring party turned the volume down in surrender! VICTORY!
Now I do commend a bit of simulation with, say, Visaton Boxsim and import a suitable start point into the Projekte Folder to understand filters. But really the Eminence 8" needs little more than 2mH coil, 10uF shunt on the bass because it's low inductance. Tweeter might be 5.6uF and 0.18mH shunt. IDK, try it and add a resistor in front of the tweeter filter if it's too loud at the top.
Two interesting 8" or 10" bass designs:
SEAS A26 Kit
TQWT-
And below the KEF Celeste III, in the lower efficiency area with a more regular 8" bass resembling the Silver Flute 8" unit. This is the lovely BBC Butterworth 3 style with negative polarity on the tweeter. I throw in the acoustic suspension cone tweetered KLH Model 6 just for interest, because as everyone here knows, I LIKE cone tweeters.
TBH, I was lucky in finding a pair of these PA woofers for £30 in an electrical junk shop in Fareham, Hampshire. Believe me, they are EXCELLENT! They could wake up the street, and in fact I did one night when a neighbouring party was keeping us awake at 2AM. 2 minutes of those babies playing Steppenwolf on my balcony and the neighbouring party turned the volume down in surrender! VICTORY!
Now I do commend a bit of simulation with, say, Visaton Boxsim and import a suitable start point into the Projekte Folder to understand filters. But really the Eminence 8" needs little more than 2mH coil, 10uF shunt on the bass because it's low inductance. Tweeter might be 5.6uF and 0.18mH shunt. IDK, try it and add a resistor in front of the tweeter filter if it's too loud at the top.
Two interesting 8" or 10" bass designs:
SEAS A26 Kit
TQWT-
And below the KEF Celeste III, in the lower efficiency area with a more regular 8" bass resembling the Silver Flute 8" unit. This is the lovely BBC Butterworth 3 style with negative polarity on the tweeter. I throw in the acoustic suspension cone tweetered KLH Model 6 just for interest, because as everyone here knows, I LIKE cone tweeters.
Attachments
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Capt C. here's the latest on the SF's, bought 2 more pairs of the 6.5" 8ohm.
New look for the dust cap removal also.
Going to mock up a a pair of MTM's with this tweeter:
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...b-acoustics-sb29rdc-c000-4-ring-dome-tweeter/
Which I already tried once (quickly) with good results.
An Eminence build sound good also, it will interesting to see what you may come up with.
New look for the dust cap removal also.
Going to mock up a a pair of MTM's with this tweeter:
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...b-acoustics-sb29rdc-c000-4-ring-dome-tweeter/
Which I already tried once (quickly) with good results.
An Eminence build sound good also, it will interesting to see what you may come up with.
Attachments
Alright, I've done a good amount of research this past week and am dead set on building the 2 pi's in the near future. I got the plans for them and have all the components chosen. I'm sticking to his design however, I might change the box dimensions. According to him, this should be entirely possible as long as the distance between the drivers don't change. It's current dimensions are really inconvenient for me as far as size. I've designed some ones that will work better for me. Let me know if this is a good or bad idea cause according to him, it really shouldn't make a difference. Other than that, same crossover components and drivers.
Now it's on to challenge two, reusing my current gear to build something better than what I currently have. I have stereo covered through the 2 Pi speakers, however center channel and surrounds should be redone better if possible. Here are the components I currently have that could be reused:
I have 6 of these woofers. They actually sound really good for what they are and have a really clean roll off around 4khz: https://www.parts-express.com/6-1-2-poly-cone-midbass-woofer-4-ohm--299-609
I have 4 of these full-ranges. They too sound really good in my opinion: https://www.parts-express.com/tymphany-tc9fd18-08-3-1-2-full-range-paper-cone-woofer--264-1062
3 of these guys, but they sound pretty terrible and wouldn't want to reuse them but here they are anyways:
https://www.parts-express.com/goldwood-gt-25-3-cone-tweeter--270-018
I also have 3 of these crossovers, not sure if they can be reused or even if they should:
2way 602 Passive Speaker Crossover s 8ohm 4kHz w Terminal Plate | eBay
I have 2 of these that I plan on using elsewhere, but they sound amazing! Off-axis response isn't the best, but on axis is superb and I wouldn't mind buying more of these to use: https://www.parts-express.com/fountek-fe87-2-full-range-driver-8-ohm--299-022
Can any of these be salvaged? I wanted the best out of my stereo speakers as I do a lot of listening to music, the rest being an afterthought. They don't have to be anything special, really the only thing wrong with them right now is that terrible goldwood tweeter. Any suggestions?
Now it's on to challenge two, reusing my current gear to build something better than what I currently have. I have stereo covered through the 2 Pi speakers, however center channel and surrounds should be redone better if possible. Here are the components I currently have that could be reused:
I have 6 of these woofers. They actually sound really good for what they are and have a really clean roll off around 4khz: https://www.parts-express.com/6-1-2-poly-cone-midbass-woofer-4-ohm--299-609
I have 4 of these full-ranges. They too sound really good in my opinion: https://www.parts-express.com/tymphany-tc9fd18-08-3-1-2-full-range-paper-cone-woofer--264-1062
3 of these guys, but they sound pretty terrible and wouldn't want to reuse them but here they are anyways:
https://www.parts-express.com/goldwood-gt-25-3-cone-tweeter--270-018
I also have 3 of these crossovers, not sure if they can be reused or even if they should:
2way 602 Passive Speaker Crossover s 8ohm 4kHz w Terminal Plate | eBay
I have 2 of these that I plan on using elsewhere, but they sound amazing! Off-axis response isn't the best, but on axis is superb and I wouldn't mind buying more of these to use: https://www.parts-express.com/fountek-fe87-2-full-range-driver-8-ohm--299-022
Can any of these be salvaged? I wanted the best out of my stereo speakers as I do a lot of listening to music, the rest being an afterthought. They don't have to be anything special, really the only thing wrong with them right now is that terrible goldwood tweeter. Any suggestions?
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