I had plans to build some other speakers. I started a thread about them probably about a month and a half ago. I was dead set on building those however, I got a chance to go home only to find that the woofers I had ordered were being stored terribly. Long story short, my mom was cleaning my room before I got there and made a mistake by storing one speaker literally on the other speaker cone, cone to cone (kinda lopsided). Regardless, the spiders for those woofers are shot to all hell so they're unusable. I was told early on in the other thread regarding my woofers that they were tough to work with anyways and I should try something else, I guess this is that chance now that I don't have any woofers anymore.
Now to get to the real topic. I decided that I want to build something that has the capability to reach reference levels. My current tower speakers have peaked at around 103-104db during some movies; not quite reference level. They have a sensitivity around 86db or so not terribly efficient. I was thinking that PA woofers have come a long ways as far as sound quality and it might be worth trying a set of those to get really loud cleanly. I haven't had a whole lot of time to look around for some decent woofers yet, but I did come across these Dayton PA 6" woofers that look intriguing:
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-pa165-8-6-pa-driver-speaker--295-015
The cone breakup doesn't look horrible, granted that graph is smoothed like crazy to appear better than it actually is. Reviews say it isn't that bad and I would like to believe them. As far as a tweeter goes, I was thinking a Tympany (vifa) tweeter that has a high sensitivity to match the woofer and has gotten great reviews on the Internet, including Zaph who even thought it was a good performer for the price:
https://www.parts-express.com/tymphany-bc25sc06-04-1-textile-dome-tweeter--264-1028
Like I said I haven't had much time to look into this, just thought I should post something so you guys can help me down the right track. As far as a crossover, I have no idea. Another member called Zuhl designed the other one for the other speaker plans. I don't trust myself in designing a half decent crossover. If anyone has any free time and enjoys doing it, a crossover design would be greatly appreciated. Although, I suppose the drivers have to be decided first. I'm kinda posting this as a community project.
Any woofer suggestions? Haven't given it a whole lot of thought yet, but PA seemed interesting given their efficiency.
Also tweeters? I just know that Tymphany (Vifa) is supposed to be really decent for the price. Again haven't looked into that much.
Now to get to the real topic. I decided that I want to build something that has the capability to reach reference levels. My current tower speakers have peaked at around 103-104db during some movies; not quite reference level. They have a sensitivity around 86db or so not terribly efficient. I was thinking that PA woofers have come a long ways as far as sound quality and it might be worth trying a set of those to get really loud cleanly. I haven't had a whole lot of time to look around for some decent woofers yet, but I did come across these Dayton PA 6" woofers that look intriguing:
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-pa165-8-6-pa-driver-speaker--295-015
The cone breakup doesn't look horrible, granted that graph is smoothed like crazy to appear better than it actually is. Reviews say it isn't that bad and I would like to believe them. As far as a tweeter goes, I was thinking a Tympany (vifa) tweeter that has a high sensitivity to match the woofer and has gotten great reviews on the Internet, including Zaph who even thought it was a good performer for the price:
https://www.parts-express.com/tymphany-bc25sc06-04-1-textile-dome-tweeter--264-1028
Like I said I haven't had much time to look into this, just thought I should post something so you guys can help me down the right track. As far as a crossover, I have no idea. Another member called Zuhl designed the other one for the other speaker plans. I don't trust myself in designing a half decent crossover. If anyone has any free time and enjoys doing it, a crossover design would be greatly appreciated. Although, I suppose the drivers have to be decided first. I'm kinda posting this as a community project.
Any woofer suggestions? Haven't given it a whole lot of thought yet, but PA seemed interesting given their efficiency.
Also tweeters? I just know that Tymphany (Vifa) is supposed to be really decent for the price. Again haven't looked into that much.
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This Tymphany woofer looks even better. Has a super flat response (gradual rise) all the way up to 10khz. Even one of the reviewers confirms this. Only Downside is lack of low end. In a .3 cubic foot box tuned to 90hz, its f3 is only 80hz. Not sure if I really need anything lower than that though cause I crossover my subwoofer at 80hz anyways. They're a little less sensitive, but have a more linear response.
https://www.parts-express.com/tymph...-5-1-4-midrange-woofer-driver-8-ohm--264-1400
https://www.parts-express.com/tymph...-5-1-4-midrange-woofer-driver-8-ohm--264-1400
You will need at least an 8in pro audio woofer with circa 93dB sensitivity or two 90dB 6.5in woofers to hit THX reference levels. With baffle step loss on a small cabinet you are at -5dB of whatever driver or drivers you pick. It's not really "bookshelf" anymore. You really can't make a true reference level THX capable speaker as a bookshelf. The physics just don't support it if low distortion at the upper SPL end is important to you.
If you at trying to go budget - looks at Dayton Classic series woofers. They are quite sensitive if used in twos. Or Dayton PA series woofers. Just get a tweeter that has a low fs and can handle 50w to 100w (depending on sensitivity) so that it can be put into duty supporting 105dB at listening position with 10dB headroom.
PA200-8 can work. Use with something like Tymphany H26TG06-6 Silk dome Very smooth and both drivers are $70. Important consideration if making five units for HT. This combo is capable of reaching 115dB peak if my estimates are correct.
One other tip is to look at polycone woofers. They generally have well controlled breakup vs paper or aluminum.
If you at trying to go budget - looks at Dayton Classic series woofers. They are quite sensitive if used in twos. Or Dayton PA series woofers. Just get a tweeter that has a low fs and can handle 50w to 100w (depending on sensitivity) so that it can be put into duty supporting 105dB at listening position with 10dB headroom.
PA200-8 can work. Use with something like Tymphany H26TG06-6 Silk dome Very smooth and both drivers are $70. Important consideration if making five units for HT. This combo is capable of reaching 115dB peak if my estimates are correct.
One other tip is to look at polycone woofers. They generally have well controlled breakup vs paper or aluminum.
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You want 105dB at the listening position, IIRC. How far will you be from the main speakers?
You could manage it with a pair of Behringer B2031P monitors if you're about 2m away. Set off at 88dB@1w@1m, stick 100w through each and you're at 108dB @1m. -6dB (for distance) gives 102dB per speaker at listening position, but they're going to be mostly in-phase so you'll get 3-6dB back, giving 105-108dB peaks when both speakers are taking 100w.
If you're sat at 10m, its a different story, as you lose 20dB from the distance, meaning you need something that'll do 125dB@1m cleanly.
Chris
You could manage it with a pair of Behringer B2031P monitors if you're about 2m away. Set off at 88dB@1w@1m, stick 100w through each and you're at 108dB @1m. -6dB (for distance) gives 102dB per speaker at listening position, but they're going to be mostly in-phase so you'll get 3-6dB back, giving 105-108dB peaks when both speakers are taking 100w.
If you're sat at 10m, its a different story, as you lose 20dB from the distance, meaning you need something that'll do 125dB@1m cleanly.
Chris
It doesn't have to be bookshelf I guess. Isn't really a big deal; floor standing speakers are fine. Like I said, this is kinda an open ended project except for money which I'm trying to keep fairly cheap (150$ for a pair). Also, I only plan on building 2 speakers right out of the gate as I already have a center and surrounds for now. Ultimately I'll replace them too, but I want good stereo speakers first as I listen to a lot of music also on this.
Like I said above, reference isn't extremely important. It's a goal, but not mandatory (maybe later down the road). I would rather have clean sound while staying in my budget while being louder than what I currently have which really aren't that efficient so shouldn't be hard to beat.
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Hi,
It generally doesn't work like that for farfield. Once out of the nearfield,
boundary is defined as equal direct to reflected sound, the level is more
or less the same in the rest of the room, though boundaries affect bass.
rgds, sreten.
Efficient speakers that go loud, this uses a 92dB 8" PA woofer...
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/147632-classic-monitor-designs-25.html#post4428857
Wayne Parham uses Eminence Alpha 8A and 10A in his simplest models:
Pi Speakers - Product Line and Driver Complements
Along with this Vifa DX25TG59-04 tweeter:
Tymphany DX25TG59-04 1" Fabric Dome Tweeter
He'll email you a XO design. It's quite simple.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/147632-classic-monitor-designs-25.html#post4428857
Wayne Parham uses Eminence Alpha 8A and 10A in his simplest models:
Pi Speakers - Product Line and Driver Complements
Along with this Vifa DX25TG59-04 tweeter:
Tymphany DX25TG59-04 1" Fabric Dome Tweeter
He'll email you a XO design. It's quite simple.
Indeed, Eminence are very forthcoming with design details for their co-axial speakers:
Using coaxial products for DIY monitors and home hi-fi applications | Eminence Speaker
2mH, 10uF bass filter, and tweeter on 3.3uF, 0.33mH and a resistive pad. How simple is that?
6" drivers need more crossover work, as well as not really being quite the right sound balance and efficiency.
All the 8 and 10" 2 ways rely on a well behaved bass unit frequency response and can even work on a simple 0.6mH bass coil on occasion where you want steeper rolloff to match a tweeter. Even Exotic SEAS types:
WOOFERS
Efficient speakers that go loud, this uses a 92dB 8" PA woofer...
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/147632-classic-monitor-designs-25.html#post4428857
Wayne Parham uses Eminence Alpha 8A and 10A in his simplest models:
Pi Speakers - Product Line and Driver Complements
Along with this Vifa DX25TG59-04 tweeter:
Tymphany DX25TG59-04 1" Fabric Dome Tweeter
He'll email you a XO design. It's quite simple.
It sounds intriguing, but will probably run me more money than I'm willing to spend. I was hoping to keep the driver costs under 100$.
I'm a little confused then on what SPL actually is. I know it means "Sound Pressure Level" but isn't that just a function of Sensitivity? More Sensitivity > SPL correct? The 5.25" achieves over 92db @ 2.83v/1m. Isn't this the same regardless of woofer size? For example a 10" woofer with a 90db sensitivity and a 6" woofer with a 90db sensitivity achieve the same SPL. Or does the 10" some how have more SPL regardless of sensitivity?
Parts express also has some buyout woofers that are interesting. I'm hesitant about them though cause there's practically no information about them and only 1 review. I could grab 2 of these 4 ohm versions, wire them in series for 8 ohms, and build some towers that should be able to achieve some decent SPL.
https://www.parts-express.com/tc-60...one-woofer-with-foam-surround-4-ohm--299-2196
Again guys, I'm just throwing out ideas.
https://www.parts-express.com/tc-60...one-woofer-with-foam-surround-4-ohm--299-2196
Again guys, I'm just throwing out ideas.
The rated sensitivity is at the asymptotic high frequency you see on the graph. The ability to get this sensitivity below 200Hz depends on the cabinet and the driver TS parameters. To get bass below 200Hz requires movement of air and lots of it. To do this you need lots of surface area and xmax. It's easy for a driver to have 92dB at 1kHz. What make a speaker sound good is getting the matching SPL at frequencies below 200Hz. Usually needs a woofer or some box like a BLH, TL, BR, MLTL, etc. also asking a small driver to make lots of bass is asking for more distortion.
In the right cabinet like a mini Karlsonator, that Peerless resembles a Dayton PA130 and can probably get 90dB down to 70Hz. But it's moving a lot.
In the right cabinet like a mini Karlsonator, that Peerless resembles a Dayton PA130 and can probably get 90dB down to 70Hz. But it's moving a lot.
More than a little confused, I'd say, CaptCrawfish. Totally confused. Sorry. 
Here's your homework: High Efficiency Speakers
Read it and then please stop suggesting small buyout speakers. Big boxes, big drivers, light cones with low loss surrounds and strong magnets is how high efficiency works. Maybe even some horn loading. It can sound very dynamic. It's the sort of speaker I like.
Here's your homework: High Efficiency Speakers
Read it and then please stop suggesting small buyout speakers. Big boxes, big drivers, light cones with low loss surrounds and strong magnets is how high efficiency works. Maybe even some horn loading. It can sound very dynamic. It's the sort of speaker I like.
More than a little confused, I'd say, CaptCrawfish. Totally confused. Sorry.
Here's your homework: High Efficiency Speakers
Read it and then please stop suggesting small buyout speakers. Big boxes, big drivers, light cones with low loss surrounds and strong magnets is how high efficiency works. Maybe even some horn loading. It can sound very dynamic. It's the sort of speaker I like.
Thanks for the link! Some really good stuff in there. Ok, I understand what an efficient speaker truly is now. However, I'm not looking for a 12" monster cab here. I do have size restraints. Money is also an issue as mentioned so most decent 10", 12", ect... drivers are going to be well out of my price range I would assume. I'll keep looking around for something better suited for high efficiency while staying under my budget.
Some of these buyout woofers seem very efficient given their TS parameters though. Many of them have a very low diaphragm mass with high BL's and a low qts as a result. That is exactly what your link was saying defined a high sensitivity speaker. I don't think we should rule them out; besides the prices look really nice too. I think you should at least give a couple a look before shooting them down.
Bass extension isn't necessary below say 60hz so I don't need a huge driver. Even your article was saying that you could get away with a smaller driver if low end extension isn't mandatory.
capn: aside from the fact that currency international shipping, taxes, etc can more than double the landed cost of such buyouts for non continental US enthusiasts, I'd imagine that Steve has already considered the drivers identified, and would have his own suggestions.
Good advice has already been given in the above thread, and I'll add my own observation - since the title of this thread refers to "bookshelf" enclosures (whatever range of dimensions you mean by that) - can we assume that the room in question has size constraints? A description of even rough room measurements and shape could help considerably in planning an HT system that makes sense for this particular case.
There is no one size fits all, and sooner in the frequency bandwidth than you might think, the room can become your major obstacle - particularly at the bottom several octaves at THX certified reference level.
Good advice has already been given in the above thread, and I'll add my own observation - since the title of this thread refers to "bookshelf" enclosures (whatever range of dimensions you mean by that) - can we assume that the room in question has size constraints? A description of even rough room measurements and shape could help considerably in planning an HT system that makes sense for this particular case.
There is no one size fits all, and sooner in the frequency bandwidth than you might think, the room can become your major obstacle - particularly at the bottom several octaves at THX certified reference level.
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