Friends, good day to you and good mood!
I just want to apologize for my terrible English.
I need your help again! I currently have a Diatone DS-90C system. These are very large and heavy speakers.
Not long ago, I was talking to a friend of mine who builds his own speakers. And I love to do everything myself. And I got hooked on this idea.
I've studied various speaker layouts and settled on D'Appolito speaker placement, but I want to go a little farther. I want to have the same wide bass range as my existing speakers.
I want to make the following layout (bottom to top):
1. Subwoofer at the very bottom, with a diameter of 18 inches, and with a frequency range of 18-20 Hz (yes, I know that there are few such speakers, but my diatons have speakers from 20 Hz and I don’t want the new ones to be worse) - I can't decide on a brand
2. midrange and woofer - I can't decide on a brand.
3. midrange speaker - I can not decide on the brand.
4. tweeter - I will be using a Viawave GRT-145W-8.
5. midrange speaker - I can't decide on a brand.
6. midrange and woofer (I don't know how it will be in English and the mid-range and low-frequency speaker in one case 🙂) - I can't decide on the brand.
I really need your help in selecting speaker models. Can you please advise which speakers should I choose to make them sound better than my Diatone DS-90C? I know the project is crazy. Instead of a passive crossover, I will use an active crossover, I have not chosen it yet. I will design the case myself, taking into account the parameters of the selected speakers. I really need your help.
I just want to apologize for my terrible English.
I need your help again! I currently have a Diatone DS-90C system. These are very large and heavy speakers.
Not long ago, I was talking to a friend of mine who builds his own speakers. And I love to do everything myself. And I got hooked on this idea.
I've studied various speaker layouts and settled on D'Appolito speaker placement, but I want to go a little farther. I want to have the same wide bass range as my existing speakers.
I want to make the following layout (bottom to top):
1. Subwoofer at the very bottom, with a diameter of 18 inches, and with a frequency range of 18-20 Hz (yes, I know that there are few such speakers, but my diatons have speakers from 20 Hz and I don’t want the new ones to be worse) - I can't decide on a brand
2. midrange and woofer - I can't decide on a brand.
3. midrange speaker - I can not decide on the brand.
4. tweeter - I will be using a Viawave GRT-145W-8.
5. midrange speaker - I can't decide on a brand.
6. midrange and woofer (I don't know how it will be in English and the mid-range and low-frequency speaker in one case 🙂) - I can't decide on the brand.
I really need your help in selecting speaker models. Can you please advise which speakers should I choose to make them sound better than my Diatone DS-90C? I know the project is crazy. Instead of a passive crossover, I will use an active crossover, I have not chosen it yet. I will design the case myself, taking into account the parameters of the selected speakers. I really need your help.
Sorry to disappoint you. Your current speakers appear to have a bass extension down to 40 - 60 Hz @ -3 dB only.
https://speaker.easy-myshop.jp/c-item-detail?ic=sp0244
https://audio-heritage.jp/DIATONE/diatoneds/ds-90c.html
Luckily, that means that it will be easy to meet or exceed this performance.
There is of course nothing stopping you from designing a loudspeaker that extends down to 30 Hz or even lower. I would recommend to select a proven speaker design for 100 Hz up and add to it an active subwoofer. Build them in the same box with separate compartments, to make it look like a single loudspeaker. That saves you from the hassle of designing a passive crossover and saves money on the (what would be an) expensive crossover between woofer and subwoofer.
The proven speaker design ideally should be driven by an amplifier with an active high pass filter, to protect the woofer. The woofer enclosure can be reduced in size and its vent can be removed, as the woofer is relieved from its bass duty. The subwoofer can be any popular driver that is locally available at a good price.
https://speaker.easy-myshop.jp/c-item-detail?ic=sp0244
https://audio-heritage.jp/DIATONE/diatoneds/ds-90c.html
Luckily, that means that it will be easy to meet or exceed this performance.
There is of course nothing stopping you from designing a loudspeaker that extends down to 30 Hz or even lower. I would recommend to select a proven speaker design for 100 Hz up and add to it an active subwoofer. Build them in the same box with separate compartments, to make it look like a single loudspeaker. That saves you from the hassle of designing a passive crossover and saves money on the (what would be an) expensive crossover between woofer and subwoofer.
The proven speaker design ideally should be driven by an amplifier with an active high pass filter, to protect the woofer. The woofer enclosure can be reduced in size and its vent can be removed, as the woofer is relieved from its bass duty. The subwoofer can be any popular driver that is locally available at a good price.
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I would like to agree with you, but just at this link there is information that my speaker system operates at 20 Hz.
https://audio-heritage.jp/DIATONE/diatoneds/ds-90c.htmlForgive me for daring to argue with a respected person.
Don't get me wrong, I've been listening to my speaker system for several years and comparing it with the systems of many of my friends, and only I have such a chic and rich bass.
I don't want to lose this feeling.
https://audio-heritage.jp/DIATONE/diatoneds/ds-90c.htmlForgive me for daring to argue with a respected person.
Don't get me wrong, I've been listening to my speaker system for several years and comparing it with the systems of many of my friends, and only I have such a chic and rich bass.
I don't want to lose this feeling.
And at the expense of the subwoofer, I suggested: Subwoofer - mid and low frequency speaker - midrange speaker tweeter - midrange speaker - midrange and low frequency speaker. Now I'll draw a picture, my English is very bad, and perhaps I didn't describe my idea well in the first post.
Hi Vetusto,
That link does include the text: "Playback frequency band: 20Hz-20kHz", but that isn't really the most important info. That's because they haven't defined what they mean by that term, eg they haven't said "+/-3dB" which would be one of the more common tolerances for a loudspeaker frequency response. The more useful info is the graph of the frequency response, which shows that the level is about 20dB lower at 20Hz than in the main part of the response, and we don't normally consider -20dB as being the normal, useful part of the response.
Nevertheless, you have given us a useful point of reference, in that we now know the level of bass extension you're used to.
As to your proposed layout, I think something like these are what you mean? (apart from any sub you may decide to add)
https://heissmann-acoustics.de/en/dxt-wave-fusion/https://heissmann-acoustics.de/en/dxt-wave-xl-fusion/
These are generally well regarded designs, so if you don't know enough to design your own project from scratch, they'd be a good place to start.
Hope this helps,
David.
PS, don't worry about your English, it's far better than most native English speakers' efforts at other languages!
That link does include the text: "Playback frequency band: 20Hz-20kHz", but that isn't really the most important info. That's because they haven't defined what they mean by that term, eg they haven't said "+/-3dB" which would be one of the more common tolerances for a loudspeaker frequency response. The more useful info is the graph of the frequency response, which shows that the level is about 20dB lower at 20Hz than in the main part of the response, and we don't normally consider -20dB as being the normal, useful part of the response.
Nevertheless, you have given us a useful point of reference, in that we now know the level of bass extension you're used to.
As to your proposed layout, I think something like these are what you mean? (apart from any sub you may decide to add)
https://heissmann-acoustics.de/en/dxt-wave-fusion/https://heissmann-acoustics.de/en/dxt-wave-xl-fusion/
These are generally well regarded designs, so if you don't know enough to design your own project from scratch, they'd be a good place to start.
Hope this helps,
David.
PS, don't worry about your English, it's far better than most native English speakers' efforts at other languages!
This is a sketch. The dimensions are not exact, but I tried to take the real diameters of the speakers as a basis.
Thanks David! 🙂
You may call me a complete idiot, but I want to do what I have in mind. What is the right way to say this?... I have an idea to make a WOW speaker system, and I really want it to be exactly like this, with a huge woofer and according to the D'Appolito scheme. 🙂
I can not use a subwoofer, but take a woofer, midrange speaker, tweeter, midrange speaker, woofer.
But in any case, the woofer must be huge and then you need two of them. 🙂 I don't know how to put it. I just want it. Let me step on a lot of rakes, but if I choose the right woofers and midrange speakers, then if the first project does not work out, I will make a new one with these speakers. The case is easier to make and much cheaper than buying new speakers. Therefore, I ask for help, to choose the right midrange and bass speakers.
hello vetusto,
the brand is probably the last choice you need to make.
first decisions will be more general, based on what music you listen to (or home theater?), what max SPL you want, what your room looks like, how much money you are willing to spend, whether you want to move around while listening (and provide sound for more people, not just the ones sitting in sweet spot), etc. etc. ...
I went to this site:
http://www.loudspeakerdatabase.com/ru/Dayton/DC380-8And this is the only large woofer that is relatively suitable for me in terms of parameters:
Dayton Audio DC380-8
http://www.loudspeakerdatabase.com/ru/Dayton/DC380-8And this is the only large woofer that is relatively suitable for me in terms of parameters:
Dayton Audio DC380-8
Hi,
First do you have experience with loudspeaker design? If not i agree with David Morrison, Heissmann's loudspeaker garanty you'll have a listenable outcome.
But to answer your concern about bass here is my view:
Rather than the bandwidth extension i would focus on sd ( membrane surface): your Diatone use 18" as low way up to 350hz.
So i would be sure that you have at least the same sd ( in the vicinity of 1200cm2) up to 250hz.
This could be one 18" but 2 x 12" will give roughly the same sd too, so it could be the first woofer pair within your stack. It could better the behavior of your Diatone regarding directivity too as an 18" playing 350hz is a bit of a stretch in the upper end regarding directivity.
For the sub way i would go sealed and with 2x 18" in 'dual opposed configuration' to cancel vibration the driver generate. Might seems overkill but the lower you want to go in freq the more sd you need and if you want to lower the bandwith to 20hz/25hz you can trade spl ( max output level) for lowering the bandwith thanks to a Linkwitz Transform (but only sealed, a vented box ask different approach).
I would make the sub with it's own dedicated box and with a crossover frequency around 60hz as it'll allow you to locate them in room where they sound the better which isn't necessary the place where your loudspeakers are good for stereo and/or mid high.
If you are experienced and keen to experiment with new approach you could think about an 'Horbach-Keele' principle implementation but it'll require some specific gear and approach ( it ask for FIR filter, multiamplifier, multioutput dac or dsp...). But If this is your first build forget about this principle.
First do you have experience with loudspeaker design? If not i agree with David Morrison, Heissmann's loudspeaker garanty you'll have a listenable outcome.
But to answer your concern about bass here is my view:
Rather than the bandwidth extension i would focus on sd ( membrane surface): your Diatone use 18" as low way up to 350hz.
So i would be sure that you have at least the same sd ( in the vicinity of 1200cm2) up to 250hz.
This could be one 18" but 2 x 12" will give roughly the same sd too, so it could be the first woofer pair within your stack. It could better the behavior of your Diatone regarding directivity too as an 18" playing 350hz is a bit of a stretch in the upper end regarding directivity.
For the sub way i would go sealed and with 2x 18" in 'dual opposed configuration' to cancel vibration the driver generate. Might seems overkill but the lower you want to go in freq the more sd you need and if you want to lower the bandwith to 20hz/25hz you can trade spl ( max output level) for lowering the bandwith thanks to a Linkwitz Transform (but only sealed, a vented box ask different approach).
I would make the sub with it's own dedicated box and with a crossover frequency around 60hz as it'll allow you to locate them in room where they sound the better which isn't necessary the place where your loudspeakers are good for stereo and/or mid high.
If you are experienced and keen to experiment with new approach you could think about an 'Horbach-Keele' principle implementation but it'll require some specific gear and approach ( it ask for FIR filter, multiamplifier, multioutput dac or dsp...). But If this is your first build forget about this principle.
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Hello, Stv!
O! I can answer all these questions! 🙂
1. Yes, I want to move around, not sit in one place, which is why I chose the D'Appolito formation scheme.
2. At the expense of sound pressure: I have a Diatone DS-90, there are huge woofers, and they pump air even at a very low volume. It's like a built-in subwoofer. This is infra bass sound. This is exactly the sound pressure I want.
3. No, this is not a home theater, this is a stereo system for listening to music of any genre, from the Grand Symphony Orchestra and jazz, to the worst underground rap. But sometimes I watch films, and of course my acoustic system works wonders in films too.
4. Budget... This is a very difficult question. I have about 2700 dollars. And I plan to do this project for about one year, during this year I will be able to collect money and invest in this project. I can buy speakers not all at once, but in several stages? ... Right?
Hello, krivium!
You're right. This is my first project. Before that, I made super tweeters (here on the forum there is my topic, where I could not solve the issue with crossovers). I have not finished them yet, but almost everything is ready, it remains only to give the body to the master, who will cover it with piano lacquer. I don't have time to get to the master yet.Many thanks! So I can build a system with two 15" woofers and the system will be both smaller and much better than my Diatons? 🙂 O! This is very good news!
15" speakers are easier to find and the tower itself can be made smaller. Which woofers and midrange speakers can you recommend?
Not nescessarely better but equivalent. There is difference between the sound of one driver and multiple smaller for same sd. But i would not loose sleep about it.
Yes 2x15" would equal more or less a 21".
Smaller? Hmm you are contemplating some huge speaker build!
Something in the same vein as Dunlavy SC VI. Not really earbud size. 😉
Yes 2x15" would equal more or less a 21".
Smaller? Hmm you are contemplating some huge speaker build!
Something in the same vein as Dunlavy SC VI. Not really earbud size. 😉
ok, that doesn't necessarily relate to d'appolito configuration as far as i know.
you will need a wide (horizontal) dispersion for the drivers in their respective pass-band.
ok, i was referring to a dB number. this will define what drivers and enclosure you need.
One usually picks the box size from the fs & vas of the bass driver. As the wavelength of 20 hz is 440' or 146 m there is not any point in having two 20-100 hz subs in any room narrower than that, the ear will not resolve the position. Besides most inexpensive electronic crossovers merge the two sub channels into one. (for example a nady cx-22sw crossover that I picked up for $50). Also the sub is heavy so building it into the same enclosure as mid-bass makes the system expensive to move.
To pick a sub driver you need to decide how loud you want for how many people in what volume room. That tells you how much wattage a driver you want. For example, in my 4.3 m w x 3.2 m h x 11 m long room I find 50 watts into a 98 db 1w1m speaker produces as much sound as I want to hear (without ear damage).
If you are driving a 33 m w x 10 m h x 100 m long room full of people, you may need a more like 500 or 1000 w driver. A driver listed as suitable for 20-100 hz I have data on is the eminence lab15 https://www.eminence.com/speakers/speaker-detail/?model=LAB_15 which has FS 28 hz Qt of 0.35 and Vas of 103.6 L . ThIs Qt indicates vented enclosure (below 0.4) . To get f3/fs (20/28) the f3 factor is 2, so the box has to have a volume of 2* Vas or 206 L. David B Weems suggested miinimum port size for 15" driver is 12 cm. His chart for 10 cm ports stops at 150 L and lowest f3 is shown at 25 hz for port length 15 cm. So there is a reason to put this driver in a separate enormous box.
To pick a sub driver you need to decide how loud you want for how many people in what volume room. That tells you how much wattage a driver you want. For example, in my 4.3 m w x 3.2 m h x 11 m long room I find 50 watts into a 98 db 1w1m speaker produces as much sound as I want to hear (without ear damage).
If you are driving a 33 m w x 10 m h x 100 m long room full of people, you may need a more like 500 or 1000 w driver. A driver listed as suitable for 20-100 hz I have data on is the eminence lab15 https://www.eminence.com/speakers/speaker-detail/?model=LAB_15 which has FS 28 hz Qt of 0.35 and Vas of 103.6 L . ThIs Qt indicates vented enclosure (below 0.4) . To get f3/fs (20/28) the f3 factor is 2, so the box has to have a volume of 2* Vas or 206 L. David B Weems suggested miinimum port size for 15" driver is 12 cm. His chart for 10 cm ports stops at 150 L and lowest f3 is shown at 25 hz for port length 15 cm. So there is a reason to put this driver in a separate enormous box.
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Stv is right, vertically aligned configuration doesn't garanty you a wide lateral coverage. If well implemented they does but other layout do that too. That said they could help to control the vertical coverage. And this is the whole point of Horbach Keele approach. For your curiosity:
http://www.xlrtechs.com/dbkeele.com...ear Phase Digital Crossover Flters Part 1.pdf
http://www.xlrtechs.com/dbkeele.com...ear Phase Digital Crossover Flters Part 2.pdf
First part is theorical, second an implementation example.
If you are decided on this kind of layout i would go heissman. This is not going to be easy built: large loudspeakers have specific needs in term of realisation and i would hesitate to do it as a first approach.
http://www.xlrtechs.com/dbkeele.com...ear Phase Digital Crossover Flters Part 1.pdf
http://www.xlrtechs.com/dbkeele.com...ear Phase Digital Crossover Flters Part 2.pdf
First part is theorical, second an implementation example.
If you are decided on this kind of layout i would go heissman. This is not going to be easy built: large loudspeakers have specific needs in term of realisation and i would hesitate to do it as a first approach.
I’m not sure how you got this figure? 20 Hz is a 17.15 metre wavelength, from c/f where c is 343m/s and f is 20.
The rest of your post is good advice though; is this a hifi system or for playback at gatherings or events? 20 Hz in domestic environments is a lot easier to achieve thanks to room gain, but extension is always at the expense of maximum output and/or cabinet size. Those pesky iron laws.
D’Appolito alignments can offer more consistent coverage angles in the vertical domain, but they have to be designed with consideration of the coverage angle versus frequency for the drivers used in the system. So the desired coverage angle will dictate the driver sizes to be investigated, rather than the other way around.
Vetusto, you came here, asked for help.
The guys orienting you here have tones of knowledge, years of reading and experience. If you want to "do what you want", do it and post the pictures. Try to measure the frequency response and than ask something if you feel something is missing or wrong.
The guys orienting you here have tones of knowledge, years of reading and experience. If you want to "do what you want", do it and post the pictures. Try to measure the frequency response and than ask something if you feel something is missing or wrong.
You're right. Nearly. But I want not such terrible acoustic systems.. 🙂 I am a perfectionist. And the shape will be magical, I hope. I'm still experimenting with the form.
Here is an almost standard design:
Attachments
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