so once again you ignore the finite speed of sound issue because it is fatal to your imaginary incompressible water, but at least we have this:
and surely you realize that's not what would happen right? If sound can travel through steel or uranium it stands to reason that it can travel through water no? It's not that stiff man. just get over it.
and surely you realize that's not what would happen right? If sound can travel through steel or uranium it stands to reason that it can travel through water no? It's not that stiff man. just get over it.
thoriated said:
You mean "sites", right?
Here you are:
Maximum density: read the definition line.
Sound waves: Take note of the constant reference to "pressure" rather than "compression". Pressure is force acting on a material; compression is the result of (sufficient) pressure.
Also from this site, take note of the illustrations that show how waves can cancel each other out. This is a function of pressure.
Water properties. This site is packed with relevant material. In particular, pay attention to the Density Of Ice And Water paragraph. It shows waters near perfect incompressibility under given conditions of temperature and pressure.
Read through the Compressibility paragraph too.
Here a big one: Particle Displacement. Keep an open mind when you read through this, as it doesn't mention compression anywhere.
There are more, but this is enough to chew on for a while, no?
MJL21193 said:
poptart said:
Has it been 4 days already? You need to take the next 4 off to hone your reading skills - the finite speed of sound through water is quoted above - loss of energy transfer efficiency due to the low elastic properties of water.
Also, I never did say that water is incompressible. I said (what is this, about 100 times now?) that there isn't enough sound energy to do that. Displacement, not compression.
Well, if you are so hung onto Wikipedia, how about looking up their blurb about sound waves, instead citing another obscure arts 'interpretation' ?
Let's see ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_waves#Physics_of_sound
hmm ...
"Sound is transmitted through gases, plasma, and liquids as longitudinal waves, also called compression waves. Through solids, however, it can be transmitted as both longitudinal and transverse waves. Longitudinal sound waves are waves of alternating pressure deviations from the equilibrium pressure, causing local regions of compression and rarefaction, while transverse waves in solids, are waves of alternating shear stress."
"The energy carried by the sound wave converts back and forth between the potential energy of the extra compression (in case of longitudinal waves) or lateral displacement strain (in case of transverse waves) of the matter and the kinetic energy of the oscillations of the medium."
Let's see ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_waves#Physics_of_sound
hmm ...
"Sound is transmitted through gases, plasma, and liquids as longitudinal waves, also called compression waves. Through solids, however, it can be transmitted as both longitudinal and transverse waves. Longitudinal sound waves are waves of alternating pressure deviations from the equilibrium pressure, causing local regions of compression and rarefaction, while transverse waves in solids, are waves of alternating shear stress."
"The energy carried by the sound wave converts back and forth between the potential energy of the extra compression (in case of longitudinal waves) or lateral displacement strain (in case of transverse waves) of the matter and the kinetic energy of the oscillations of the medium."
"loss of energy transfer efficiency" would mean the sound wouldn't travel infinitely FAR and I'm asking you to explain why it wouldn't travel infinitely FAST. You're not even close to doing that.
why not? there's some kind of threshold effect that says "sure 1000psi will compress it a little, but below that there's zero compression"? Use your brain man, it's a gradient not a yes/no effect. If 1000psi compresses it so does 1psi or 0.001 psi. Just because you can't measure that with your eyes doesn't mean it's not happening.
why not? there's some kind of threshold effect that says "sure 1000psi will compress it a little, but below that there's zero compression"? Use your brain man, it's a gradient not a yes/no effect. If 1000psi compresses it so does 1psi or 0.001 psi. Just because you can't measure that with your eyes doesn't mean it's not happening.
Bratislav said:
That's a university site; should be a credible source.
poptart said:
Now before this, I didn't bother responding to your posts. Telling me to use my brain is not a way to encourage me to talk to you.
Yes, it has an effect on the distance sound will travel too. It also means just what I said: the low elastic properties of water reduce the speed that sound can travel through it.
How many times do I have to say this over and over again: IT'S EASIER TO PUSH SOMETHING ASIDE THAN TO CRUSH IT. That's the difference between displacement and compression.
Read my words, man.
Get angry.
As much as I don't quite like to admit it, Wikipedia is not a credible citation (its a great info source). Three out of the four pages you referenced were Wikipedia articles, the fourth actually undermines your argument. Look at the picture in your university reference: see how there's a range of distances between particles? That's compression and rarefaction, if it was just particles displacing there would need to be consistent distance between particles.
Again, how does your theory of how sound is transmitted explain a finite speed of sound in water? The low elastic properties of water actually make the speed of sound faster...compare with air for example.
As much as I don't quite like to admit it, Wikipedia is not a credible citation (its a great info source). Three out of the four pages you referenced were Wikipedia articles, the fourth actually undermines your argument. Look at the picture in your university reference: see how there's a range of distances between particles? That's compression and rarefaction, if it was just particles displacing there would need to be consistent distance between particles.
Again, how does your theory of how sound is transmitted explain a finite speed of sound in water? The low elastic properties of water actually make the speed of sound faster...compare with air for example.
Everybody has read your words over and over and guess what they're still wrong. Maybe it's easier to push something than crush it, depends on what it is, but so what? That doesn't prove a thing. You're still wrong and all the physicists you disagree with are still right. And your "university" source is in the linguistics department (branched off of arts).
Well I'm done. You have every right to live in an imaginary world I just thought for a while you wanted to know the truth but I guess it's more fun thinking scientists are crazy and you're the only one who really understands waves. Now that you've got it all figured out you can turn your attention back to that free energy machine.
Well I'm done. You have every right to live in an imaginary world I just thought for a while you wanted to know the truth but I guess it's more fun thinking scientists are crazy and you're the only one who really understands waves. Now that you've got it all figured out you can turn your attention back to that free energy machine.
MJL21193 said:
You are understanding me correctly - just you so far.
To be honest, I'm curious about that myself. I assume you are talking about a tank that has infinitely stiff sides that will not flex and a sound wave source inside the tank, surrounded by water (like a driver fastened in the middle of the tank to a divider with holes in it to allow water move from front to back).
It stands to reason that if what I am saying is correct, sound will not travel through it, as the molecules need room for movement and the energy from the driver does not provide sufficient force to compress the molecules closer together.
The rarefaction phase of the wave would not work either, as there is no room for the volume increase that results from a density decrease.
First, I do want to point out that just because I am understanding what you're trying to say, that it doesn't mean that I believe you're theory is correct.
However, I am curious, are we talking about just water, or is this how you believe sounds travels through all mediums?
poptart said:
This is an excellent point!
MJL21193 said:
One problem I have with your theory is that there are two many variables, everything affects sound traveling through water in you theory. The molecules that surround the said body of water, and their compressibility, the area of water exposed to these different molecules, and of course temperature, atmospheric pressure, and purity of the water. Bottom line is that water is compressible, and it doesn't have to compress much, or for very long to allow a sound wave to travel through it. Try reading about "shock compression".
-Justin (still keeping an open mind, just now stating his views)
Oh well, better late then never.... maybe.
Something need not be compressible to have sound travel in it?
If a material was not compressible, at all, then it can still move.
When pressure is applied, it moves an object. How much depends, but it moves.
If it is absolutely incompressible, then it moves the "bulk" of the object, and the speed of sound would be said to be infinite.
In reality, nothing is perfectly incompressible, so the speed of sound is less than infinite, but the less compressible something is, the faster sound travels.
This a really long thread to discuss this.
M
Something need not be compressible to have sound travel in it?
If a material was not compressible, at all, then it can still move.
When pressure is applied, it moves an object. How much depends, but it moves.
If it is absolutely incompressible, then it moves the "bulk" of the object, and the speed of sound would be said to be infinite.
In reality, nothing is perfectly incompressible, so the speed of sound is less than infinite, but the less compressible something is, the faster sound travels.
This a really long thread to discuss this.
M
No, I meant 'cites'. That doesn't rule out websites as cites, of course.
You still haven't cited anything to back up your central contention that there is no compression of materials until "sufficient" pressure (whatever that is) is applied.
Until you do, you have effectively admitted that you were wrong all along.
despotic931 said:
Silicone in water?
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.