That video is a very interesting discussion, especially how B&C tried to "improve" upon DE900's high frequency ringing with DE880, but the customers wanted the DE900 sound signature of more "sparkle" in high treble, so the DE780 was made to sound more like DE900.
I am currently loving my DE880 clone but noticed I have my DSP/EQ bumped up around where DE900 had a response bump, which comes around 14-15kHz😀
I am currently loving my DE880 clone but noticed I have my DSP/EQ bumped up around where DE900 had a response bump, which comes around 14-15kHz😀
"The people" didn't like that ringing! There are some who are used to it and in short, direct comparison there is something "missing".
But working with these resonant HF drivers is horrible. I always hated the HF of these big 2" drivers (JBL and older B&C where popular).
I did live mixing for a percussion ensamble and built speakers with BMS 2" Coax - so much better. Also for DJ music the sound was way more relaxed at high levles, no "earbleed" but still very loud.
I mean - some live sound techs still use a SM85 and think it's a good microphone ... it's a stubborn and slow industry.
But working with these resonant HF drivers is horrible. I always hated the HF of these big 2" drivers (JBL and older B&C where popular).
I did live mixing for a percussion ensamble and built speakers with BMS 2" Coax - so much better. Also for DJ music the sound was way more relaxed at high levles, no "earbleed" but still very loud.
I mean - some live sound techs still use a SM85 and think it's a good microphone ... it's a stubborn and slow industry.
@IamJF I think you mean the sm58. Those are truly horrible by today's standards, but the industry standard due to durability and familiarity. Give a sound guy an SM58 and they'll (usually) know exactly what to do with it gain and EQ wise.
Compression drivers are a similar thing that way. We all have biases towards what we're familiar with and prefer those things if we believe they can do the job. Is there better, more suitable stuff out there? Absolutely, but they'll need to become acquainted with it to build trust towards it. Just look t how many DE250s B&C sells, yet they're not even close to the best ceramic 1" driver out there, especially for the money.
Compression drivers are a similar thing that way. We all have biases towards what we're familiar with and prefer those things if we believe they can do the job. Is there better, more suitable stuff out there? Absolutely, but they'll need to become acquainted with it to build trust towards it. Just look t how many DE250s B&C sells, yet they're not even close to the best ceramic 1" driver out there, especially for the money.
Yes, that's the issue you'll usually run into with the guys who just look at sound reinforcement as a functional tool. They're not usually going to care how much the driver breaks up higher and whether it suits people's tastes who care about sound quality. They care about whether the driver will get the job done and that it survives. Most sound guys are butchers (often former drummers who can't hear that well anymore). They don't care about distortion figures and other parameters.
2" drivers can sound excellent if the top end is correctly managed and dialed in. Its often pushed really hard to the point the driver just produces more and more noise, not music. The harder the treble is pushed to extend it, the worse the ringing severity becomes, especially with neglected drivers using worn out diaphragms.
The solution to all this is simply measure the breakup and apply notch filters, not just boost the ragged looked treble consisting of mostly titanium diaphragm breakup. I certainly wouldn't use a 4" diaphragm for anything above 8k or so, especially with a titanium diaphragm. 3" is the limit for treble reproduction above 10k and no more than 13k or so.
I have a pair of DE250 I want to try swapping out soon (please assume I know what I'm doing), what are your picks? I am leaning BMS.
@dumptruck It depends on the horn, desired crossover, coverage angle, accompanying woofer/mid, amplification, overall desired sound and character, etc. So basically your overall intentions with the speakers.
The recent Lavoce compression drivers, although fairly cheap, seem actually pretty advanced in terms of their apparent optimization (FEA/BEM stuff).
To mention one in particular, I have a very good experience with their DF10.171K (see https://at-horns.eu/gen2m.html#df10171k).
To mention one in particular, I have a very good experience with their DF10.171K (see https://at-horns.eu/gen2m.html#df10171k).
@profiguy Everything true. Except - I started drumming after I started sound engineering. 😀
These 4" B&C drivers have one benefit - it's really hard to destroy them. I got some pretty f?ed up speakers and monitors to service - non of these failed over the years. And you can cross over a little lower so the usual 12" midrange of these times don't sound as bad as they do crossed higher.
I use my BMS 2" on this Limmer Horn: https://www.limmerhorns.de/033/
Compact, perfect for 1-2 12" underneath. Still goes down to about 700Hz with no problems. Good radiation at high frequencies.
I plan to redo these PA speakers with fully active crossover and a good cabinet and see what's possible in sound quality (and what's missing) - to many projects running ...
These 4" B&C drivers have one benefit - it's really hard to destroy them. I got some pretty f?ed up speakers and monitors to service - non of these failed over the years. And you can cross over a little lower so the usual 12" midrange of these times don't sound as bad as they do crossed higher.
I use my BMS 2" on this Limmer Horn: https://www.limmerhorns.de/033/
Compact, perfect for 1-2 12" underneath. Still goes down to about 700Hz with no problems. Good radiation at high frequencies.
I plan to redo these PA speakers with fully active crossover and a good cabinet and see what's possible in sound quality (and what's missing) - to many projects running ...
I never drummed, i used to be a cello and bass player as kid, and a dj and music producer (underground genres) while i was a sound engineer. But health problems killed those careers so i'm into IT now...
And we did care about that, we did install limiters to reduce distortion, but mainly to protect our systems toward drunk or high dj's who like everything on 11 or beyond...
And we did care about that, we did install limiters to reduce distortion, but mainly to protect our systems toward drunk or high dj's who like everything on 11 or beyond...
Well it's an active 1400Hz LR4 acoustic (not exactly, it's a little higher, I don't recall) on a 90/60° waveguide, used for hifi and karaoke, no amplification limits.
I would suggest DE360 for sound but 1,4kHz is to low of a cross over frequency for this driver. But I would say it's also to low for the DE250? What horn do you use, it must be pretty big?
Few 1" drivers can cross much lower than 1500 hz. The main limiting factor is diaphragm clearance to the phase plug, but also compliance and VC over/underhand. Sometimes the driver can be shimmed to raise the SPL limit at lower frequencies, but at the penalty of efficiency and output sensitivity. One of the lowest crossover capable 1" drivers I've come across is the Faital HF108 (non R). It can deal with a sub 1000 hz cutoff point using a steeper filter >18 dB/oct while playing very loud and clean. I frequently use the HF108 on coax units and larger horns of various sizes. It sounds great on a B&C ME45, ME20, Eminence WG10 and various Seos WGs. The STH100 is also good but it beams more at very high frequency. The Eminence WG10 and B&C ME45 are the clear winners here crosed above 1200 hz 3rd order +.
The marriage of drivers to horns is extremely critical when wanting very clean, hifi grade sound. I always look for a super clean impedance curve with preferably only one main peak. Some smaller ones are to be expected, but the best sounding drivers have a very clean impedance curve with only one main peak. The larger drivers will have much lower resonance frequency peaks, but also multiple wrinkles.
The DE250 is a good older design driver. Not much to fault here, but it tends to be a bit boring and veiled. Its still an excellent driver, just not as competitive as some newer models, specifically ring radiators ie. DE360, JBL 2407, PRV D260MYB, etc.
The marriage of drivers to horns is extremely critical when wanting very clean, hifi grade sound. I always look for a super clean impedance curve with preferably only one main peak. Some smaller ones are to be expected, but the best sounding drivers have a very clean impedance curve with only one main peak. The larger drivers will have much lower resonance frequency peaks, but also multiple wrinkles.
The DE250 is a good older design driver. Not much to fault here, but it tends to be a bit boring and veiled. Its still an excellent driver, just not as competitive as some newer models, specifically ring radiators ie. DE360, JBL 2407, PRV D260MYB, etc.
Oh the QSC Horn ... it's a pitty it's not available any more ...
Simple and works great. We should make a 3D model of it. Anybody here able to do so or sending me the horn and I will learn some new skills? 🙂
You can generate, model & print something similar:
- https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...-design-the-easy-way-ath4.338806/post-6756830
- https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...-design-the-easy-way-ath4.338806/post-6756830
On a side note, I've been testing some cheaper 2" drivers and have discovered a very good one. The PRV D3220PH with the hybrid Ti diaphragm with polymer surround is performing excellent, almost too excellent. On a large 300 hz horn it loads down clean all the way to 300 hz at over 8V drive. Extension is very smooth past 13k, likely better but still need to verify with measurement. It tests well on the A290 despite my initial concerns with exit angle compatibility. My A290 clones have slightly smaller throat entrance dimensions after the adapter. I still suspect the adapter being not optimal for use with most drivers.
Other PRV 1" drivers I've tested have also been very good. The D260MYB is a ferrite magnet version of the JBL 2407 and BMS 4540 ring radiator. It sounds just as good 4540 to my ears with treble on the same quality level as a decent metal dome tweeter when used on a good horn.
The Faital HF108 still remains on top as a 1" driver overall for low cutoff frequencies. It just does many things very well.
The leader in HF resolution is still the 18Sound NSD1095N with slight exception of the better ring radiators. The NSD1095N has a top end that comes with a huge dynamic range. It images extremely well used in a 3 way with a higher cutoff. It doesn't do so well under 2.5k IMO. The rigid suspension doesn't allow it to play very low without higher levels of distortion. Above mass rolloff it excels however.
Other PRV 1" drivers I've tested have also been very good. The D260MYB is a ferrite magnet version of the JBL 2407 and BMS 4540 ring radiator. It sounds just as good 4540 to my ears with treble on the same quality level as a decent metal dome tweeter when used on a good horn.
The Faital HF108 still remains on top as a 1" driver overall for low cutoff frequencies. It just does many things very well.
The leader in HF resolution is still the 18Sound NSD1095N with slight exception of the better ring radiators. The NSD1095N has a top end that comes with a huge dynamic range. It images extremely well used in a 3 way with a higher cutoff. It doesn't do so well under 2.5k IMO. The rigid suspension doesn't allow it to play very low without higher levels of distortion. Above mass rolloff it excels however.
You should check out the Eminence WG10 bolt on 1" horn. Its VERY similar to the QSC in a few ways. I think you'd like it alot.
https://eminence.com/products/wg_10
I've been using the PRV D2200PH 2" phenolic driver with their WG45-50 18" x 10" horn for the past year in a 3-way configuration similar to the LaScala. Crossed at 475Hz, it worked exceptionally well. Any lower, however and it starts to lose directivity and phase coherence. I'm currently using it with a FastTrac-style eliptical tractrix horn and it seems to extend to 400Hz quite well.
I've also begun using a PRV D4500PH-ND driver with the WG45-50 and have been very pleased. It seems to extend very well to 400Hz with a rather smooth, but detailed and natural tone. It's about twice the size of the D2200PH, with a 2" diaphragm, 4" voice coil and neodymium magnet.
Well, I ordered some Faital HF108-8's and a pair of XT1086 horns, I know that combo and it works well in a build i did for someone else crossed at 1kHz. I'll use a different woofer, but i'll probally do the same tweeter as then. I may try some other compression drivers also, like the 4550 or that PVR (i'll still have to look at it). But I know that Faital is good and hard to beat (on a budget).
Not such a fan of B&C compression drivers for hifi altough. They are not really bad, but not the sound i like. They are very good for high power systems, but to rude sounding for hifi in my opinion. The DE250 is also like that.
Not such a fan of B&C compression drivers for hifi altough. They are not really bad, but not the sound i like. They are very good for high power systems, but to rude sounding for hifi in my opinion. The DE250 is also like that.
That WG10 you talk about is nowhere availeble. It's everywhere on stock and some shops say it's out of production... So no usefull to push here i think.
The XT1086 works well to about 1kHz, and is what i will try first. It's constant directive what i want, and has proven results and easy to find.
The XT1086 works well to about 1kHz, and is what i will try first. It's constant directive what i want, and has proven results and easy to find.