I often believed they were the same, but Bigfoot is defintly better with ski 😎 so different animals.
I do hear, clearly, a difference, between iso spec caps, while I know rating them is a non sense, all what you hear at the end is the sum of change of the input signal in your hifi... and defintly a cap is able to change that enough for your ears to notice !
Notice I said change the sound and not : enhance it. But a difference may please your ears better than another and so the game is worthing it in my experience.
I also know some hobysts that pursue horrible 4 ways compression + horn designs all their life that sound bad whatever they do or their beleif it sounds good, so.... meeting Big Foot or Nessy might be a nicer experience than listening the previous systems, uh !
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The trickiest part to this is that there is a very fine line between bashing someone's beliefs and trying to inform those that may be new to this of an apposing opinion.
If all that people new to the hobby see are glowing posts about this amazing capacitor or that other mind blowing capacitor that costs dozens or hundreds of dollars, they will only have one side of the information to make an educated decision for themselves.
Sure, we could say it is up to them to research both sides of the issue but, for many, reading here is their research.
There is an expectation bias loop that it is easy to get caught in.
1) I read a lot of posts saying this capacitor does amazing things for the sound. Drastic, night and day differences. Their description of the new sound is exactly what I want.
2) I buy the capacitor and install it.
3) I perceive the improvements that people said I'd hear and I'm happy with the purchase.
4) If the sound didn't really change or only changed a tiny bit then eventually my brain will stop hearing the improvement I thought I'd hear and I'm still left wishing my system had something more; even though I still think the last change made a big improvement in the sound.
5) I read about the new, latest, greatest, capacitor for upgrades. Since I still remember that my system improved a lot with the prior upgrade, I'm excited by the prospect of this one.
6) go to step #2
We at least should inform them - the beginners- there are not better capacitors, especially if ranked by the price and absolutus better by themselves, i.e. on a shelf out of a whole device where they have a minimal, while often hearable at minima effect.
The newbies should know first that a capacitor choice is mainly a known engineering knowledge and there are no magic behind. Then the swap for a said better (biased or not) result may not work in an other close device or elswhere in the same device with the same said better absolutus capacitor (because its price, its golden marking or said more expensive dilectric or construction)
Difference are just subtiles, but enough sometimes you may want to play the game; but never it is superior to a good engnireering design first where there are multiples things to think. So a cap is just a little filter, and what you ear is the little filter difference it makes in the whole at the output of the speakers.
Often knowledgeable people want to alert that but it is faster to fire the capacitors swaping enthusiasts than saying such a swap is a detail in front of the whole engineering design process where two close different caps is just a detail (but sometimes is worthing it) and frankly not in the first ranks of what is decided to voice a sounding device. Those same people want to alert better your monney invested in more suitable hackings like active parts or redesign of whole stages inside a device one wants to tweak ( a tweak being not always an improvement)
From a sociology perspective the caps swapping ennemy may firstly notice to the others he is in a superior rank of knowing about engineering while he can be as biased as the first when he decide not to hear a difference that might be easy to notice by a third grup party ! Both side could be sort of onanism that want to describe the Kamasutra ! But at the end the pleasure is yours and freedom should be the rule once you are advertised !
Colonel Angus 😀
If the explain is good enough, then sticky it for my own onanism pleasure !
The newbies should know first that a capacitor choice is mainly a known engineering knowledge and there are no magic behind. Then the swap for a said better (biased or not) result may not work in an other close device or elswhere in the same device with the same said better absolutus capacitor (because its price, its golden marking or said more expensive dilectric or construction)
Difference are just subtiles, but enough sometimes you may want to play the game; but never it is superior to a good engnireering design first where there are multiples things to think. So a cap is just a little filter, and what you ear is the little filter difference it makes in the whole at the output of the speakers.
Often knowledgeable people want to alert that but it is faster to fire the capacitors swaping enthusiasts than saying such a swap is a detail in front of the whole engineering design process where two close different caps is just a detail (but sometimes is worthing it) and frankly not in the first ranks of what is decided to voice a sounding device. Those same people want to alert better your monney invested in more suitable hackings like active parts or redesign of whole stages inside a device one wants to tweak ( a tweak being not always an improvement)
From a sociology perspective the caps swapping ennemy may firstly notice to the others he is in a superior rank of knowing about engineering while he can be as biased as the first when he decide not to hear a difference that might be easy to notice by a third grup party ! Both side could be sort of onanism that want to describe the Kamasutra ! But at the end the pleasure is yours and freedom should be the rule once you are advertised !
Colonel Angus 😀
If the explain is good enough, then sticky it for my own onanism pleasure !
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I don't disagree with that reasoning. It can become a fine line.
Personally I just measure my crossovers to see if they follow the curves I want them to follow (I compare them to my sims).
In other words: see (and check) if they fit within the tolerances I find acceptable, and leave it at that or do an adjustment to make them fit my tolerances.
I know there are enough people that have a bin of parts and have fun playing with this stuff. I think as long as people really do have fun going trough those steps (1 to 6, rinse and repeat)... there isn't that much harm done.
Arguably, it can work that way for other components too, like drivers or amplifiers.
So, how do we inform people the right way? If we could get a consensus of what this right way really is, only then could we inform them in that right way. 😀
I really don't know the answer to that one.
I see more harm in uninformed people using named crossover on a DSP or something they gathered from an online crossover calculator and think/believe they have applied the right crossover from one driver to the next without the knowledge a driver has it's own roll off on both ends.
Personally I just measure my crossovers to see if they follow the curves I want them to follow (I compare them to my sims).
In other words: see (and check) if they fit within the tolerances I find acceptable, and leave it at that or do an adjustment to make them fit my tolerances.
I know there are enough people that have a bin of parts and have fun playing with this stuff. I think as long as people really do have fun going trough those steps (1 to 6, rinse and repeat)... there isn't that much harm done.
Arguably, it can work that way for other components too, like drivers or amplifiers.
So, how do we inform people the right way? If we could get a consensus of what this right way really is, only then could we inform them in that right way. 😀
I really don't know the answer to that one.
I see more harm in uninformed people using named crossover on a DSP or something they gathered from an online crossover calculator and think/believe they have applied the right crossover from one driver to the next without the knowledge a driver has it's own roll off on both ends.
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The answer is of course it is always longer to learn to cook (knowing engineering) than adding chantilly on a cake (fast tweaking caps). At the end prove is in the pudding you have not to forgett that's what you eat first (not the chantilly alone)
It is by the way wize to notice by a shorter illustartion you can not always enhance things easily; for instance adding chantilly on a dirt smelling fisch is a non sense ! But at the opposite using spices with subtility can be a knowledge and a part of good coocking. In french cuisine, the sauces makers grade in a fine restaurant is the highest grade rank... behind the Cheif (design director is the metronome and receips maker).
It is by the way wize to notice by a shorter illustartion you can not always enhance things easily; for instance adding chantilly on a dirt smelling fisch is a non sense ! But at the opposite using spices with subtility can be a knowledge and a part of good coocking. In french cuisine, the sauces makers grade in a fine restaurant is the highest grade rank... behind the Cheif (design director is the metronome and receips maker).
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I think problem number one is that a lot of the people doing the swaps with progressively more expensive capacitors haven't invested in any equipment to measure the crossovers.
Swapping components is, unfortunately, the entry level DIY step for many. It is hard to stop and spend money on equipment when you could spend that money on the part that you are convinced will be exactly what you are looking for.
If they have plenty of cash to burn and don't care that they are skipping a lot of other things that might make much larger improvements for the same or less money, then more power to them. But I fear that a lot don't fall into that category. I think quite a few read the over the top posts about how incredible something sounds after a bit of soldering and a bunch of money and they want in. By the time they are well into cycling through the lather rinse repeat, they could have bought substantially better speakers or source or sound treatments or...
My feeling is there isn't a right and a wrong to it. I am certainly not knowledgeable or experienced enough to make blanket statements as to what is and isn't worthwhile. I think there is often more information to be conveyed about things like capacitors and their affect on sound. But how to convey that information without crapping on every thread where someone is astounded by the change a capacitor made, is the big question.
Once people pick a side in the debate though it is hard to have a friendly discussion. I'm not looking to save anyone from some sinister world of capacitor upgrades; I just hope they can find out that it may or may not be the be all, end all of improvements; and make an educated decision on what to do based off that information.
I myself have made changes that, logically, shouldn't have made a change to the sound, but (to me) did; sometimes a change for the worse.
Often the details of the change are missing. Did they replace a new capacitor with another of the same value and similar ESR? Or did they replace an old worn out electrolytic with a new poly cap with substantially lower ESR and a value back at the original spec. I'd think in many cases replacing a drifted, resistive old electrolytic with a new electrolytic would make quite an improvement. The fact that it was a fancy/expensive poly cap might have had less, if anything to do with the improvement. A bit like if you replaced 30 year old tires on a car with new ones but only told people that the new tires you just bought are so amazing that they make your car drive hundreds of times better. People might think your new tires were the most amazing option out there and look into buying them based on what sounds like an amazing endorsement.
Part of what this site is about is inspiring new DIYers; so, to me, it would seem that a bit of responsibility falls on us to help inform them of different options and views on the different aspects of it. But, now I'm back in my own loop of how to do that while still being welcoming to those that are fans of boutique capacitors.
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Believers ?:
- https://linearaudio.nl/cyril-batemans-capacitor-sound-articles
- High End Audio - Electrolytic capacitors
...and snake oil manufacturers (not to say crooks) ? :
- https://www.mouser.com/Audio%20Grade%20Electrolytic%20Capacitors
- Purifi-audio SPK5 Crossover kit – App Note ("two quality grade"...by the Purifi guys just trying to fool those who believe they ear a difference ?)
40 years sound experience. Thousand hours hot swapping caps > Cap type/serie/case/voltage sounding the same way everytime everywhere. In the end, i know each has its sound, and take that into account even if i am not able to measure it or when no common measured characteristic can help (same thing with resistors, coils, beads...).
I am grateful to those who share their experience of it : When you know, you recognize those who have a good hearing and thank them for guiding you among the "sound" of parts, saving you time and money experimenting.
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This is what I would recommend, purchase a single
Duelund 0.01uF 600Vdc JDM-Cu Pure Copper Foil BYPASS Capacitor
which is about $25 and use it as a bypass capacitor on your 80uf.
Consider it an experiment and real world experience to sniff out snake oil. If you hear a difference, and if you like the difference, then purchase another one for the other speaker. If you hear no difference, be happy with the sound. It is an experiment so draw your own conclusions and don't get caught up in the big debate that will never be resolved.
If you compare both speakers and feel that you hear a difference and want to go a bit further with it, then I would recommend next changing out all your sand cast resistors to something economical like Mills MR-12 resistors. Again, not expensive and then go and listen to one speaker and compare it with the other. Do the whole double blind A/B testing thing if you like with a partner and if you honestly hear a difference, then get the Mills for the other speaker.
People extract pleasure from this hobby in different ways. Just enjoy it and do you. Audio is weird, and audiophiles are even weirder. Weirdest yet are people who spend time on audiophile forums. I speak from personal experience because I'm one of the crazy ones. Just be honest with yourself when listening and don't have any confirmation bias. If you honestly don't hear a difference, then be truthful about it to yourself and know that you at least now have more experience under your belt and are down maybe $100, but it would be money well spent and might save you from jumping into the deep end by purchasing a super expensive tweak and coming away less than satisfied.
Also one other thing to remember, if you hear a difference then live with it for a while before making a judgement. Sometimes not all differences are actually improvements. It may sound new and novel but only after listening to many tracks will the results of the tweak reveal itself.
Or better yet just don't do any tweaks, don't be curios and don't dive into the rabbit hole! That is also a very good and possibly very wise path. Once you dive in, it could begin a lifelong journey with no true destination. There is nothing wrong with not knowing and just enjoying your system as it is and for what it is, it is actually a blessing in disguise in many ways.
Allen
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+1: That's why when tweaking/swapping, i also use a library of more than 40 various (looping) track extracts carefully chosen and created, controled with a remote.
+1: Enjoying listening to music is everything (...and becomes a goal only if you look for more of it).
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Already referenced this article as I read it when first published.
More subjectivism. Where are the measurements that show they're different in an audibly significant way?
And the point of adding a link to a sales page of electro caps is? Did you not read my earlier comments?
"I'll accept that caps of the same type and value sound different when..."
Note, same type.
Not saying that but it's sensible marketing. Do a low cost option for those that can afford no more, and one with "better" components for people like yourself that believe they are better.
Roger Russell wrote about this effect years ago, but with wire.
http://roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#cardas
Big deal, join the club.
Again, join the club. I've also used other who claim to have better hearing than I (and I have never made any claims my hearing is special) and tested them blind with caps matched for value on my B&K bridge. Still never had anyone pick one from another without knowing what they're listening to.
No, you believe they do. If they had an audibly significant sonic signature it would easily be measured with todays technology. Just like cables. But it's not because there is no difference and a huge advantage to any manufacturer of such products to provide such measurements, especially tested independently, but they never are.
Makes as much sense as trusting people who try to record Olympic times by shutting their eyes and counting 'one elephant, two elephant..." after the starting gun.
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Originally Posted by douede 
In the end, i know each has its sound, and take that into account even if i am not able to measure it or when no common measured characteristic can help (same thing with resistors, coils, beads...).
In the end, i know each has its sound, and take that into account even if i am not able to measure it or when no common measured characteristic can help (same thing with resistors, coils, beads...).
How one can so fundamentaly deny one another mind, its alterity and living experience ? Freaky...I give up.
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Easily. Believe you're Superman? Show me you can fly. Believe you can detect differences between two caps of the same value and type? Show me you can blind.
Just because someone says something does not mean another has to accept it (or that it's actually true), and I think that if *you* (meaning any person) do, you're foolish.
ERROR, ERROR! 😀
Even if we are measuring everything we can hear - subjective correlation with objective results (beyond the obvious freq. linearity change) is still in its relative infancy.
..and I don't think it's going to get better in this respect any time soon because of so many (real) variables that formulate a subjective response.
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No it's not. I've been asking for decades what these purportedly audible but supposedly unmeasurable effects are. Crickets.
-err, you do realize that you've just proved my point?
ie. it's not about asking, rather it's about correlation.
ie. it's not about asking, rather it's about correlation.
The one thing that has always struck me as strange about this sort of debate has been the notion that seemingly logical people suddenly throw out all sense of sanity when it comes to audio tweaking. We all navigate a complex world and carry much responsibilities on our shoulders. Many here are engineers, own businesses or live lives that require critical thinking skills and the gift of not being a complete lunatic. We could have brain surgeons on this board for all we know who we would trust with our lives or the lives of our loved ones, people whose opinions we value very highly. But if one of these people says "Yeah, I kind of hear a difference between this Duelund and this Kaisei cap" then all of a sudden every single benefit of the doubt is throw right out the window. They go from financially successful, intelligent and reasonable people to being some manic drunken street preacher out of a 1980's movie, yelling at walls and screaming about how the end is near. You might be smart enough to perform surgery, but you certainly aren't smart enough to know that you have confirmation bias. If you actually are hearing differences, then something must be wrong with you. You must be insane.
Does anyone ever question the motivations of people who claim to hear differences in different components? Do they all get together in a secret group and conspire to trick people into wasting their money, just for the fun of it? Or maybe they really do enjoy spending a couple hundred or even a couple of thousand dollars upgrading their crossover capacitors and laughing maniacally as deep down they know the speakers sound exactly the same, but they've got money to burn and it just feels too darn good not to?
For there to be an industry of aftermarket 'high end' audio components such as capacitors, wires, fuses, resistors, etc then there must be an entire group of people, who in every other facet of their lives are sane and well adjusted, but for some unknown reason just love spending money to hear identical results, but somehow throw out all faculties of reason and fool themselves, for whatever unknown deep seeded reasons, into thinking they are 'upgrading' or 'tuning' the sound. If this is truly the case, then I would have to reanalyze my entire concept of reality.
I also get a feeling that people who do tweaking and claim to hear differences just kind of chill and do it for their own pleasure. They don't really strike me as evangelical in any way. But the 'science/measurements' group always seems to find a way into their threads to troll them. Personally I think that is very funny and I get a lot of pleasure and laughter from the trolling, particularly in this thread. If you get on Audioholics or AudioScienceReview you will see them all together, and the amount of snark and negativity and judgement they have towards people who claim to hear differences borderlines on a religion. It is a strange phenomena. I don't see that from the other group. I haven't seen a thread on audiosciencereview where somebody gets on and tries to shove the concept of using Mundorf AG+ caps for power filtering and telling everyone who doesn't that they are stupid and deaf. I never see people belittling others for not using NOS Blackgate capacitors in their DACs and saying "Oh, you use Kaisei? Pssshh, nice try but nothing beats the original, loser." That just doesn't happen. There is always one side who is being aggressive and condescending, and this is perhaps my favorite thing about audiophiles.
Does anyone ever question the motivations of people who claim to hear differences in different components? Do they all get together in a secret group and conspire to trick people into wasting their money, just for the fun of it? Or maybe they really do enjoy spending a couple hundred or even a couple of thousand dollars upgrading their crossover capacitors and laughing maniacally as deep down they know the speakers sound exactly the same, but they've got money to burn and it just feels too darn good not to?
For there to be an industry of aftermarket 'high end' audio components such as capacitors, wires, fuses, resistors, etc then there must be an entire group of people, who in every other facet of their lives are sane and well adjusted, but for some unknown reason just love spending money to hear identical results, but somehow throw out all faculties of reason and fool themselves, for whatever unknown deep seeded reasons, into thinking they are 'upgrading' or 'tuning' the sound. If this is truly the case, then I would have to reanalyze my entire concept of reality.
I also get a feeling that people who do tweaking and claim to hear differences just kind of chill and do it for their own pleasure. They don't really strike me as evangelical in any way. But the 'science/measurements' group always seems to find a way into their threads to troll them. Personally I think that is very funny and I get a lot of pleasure and laughter from the trolling, particularly in this thread. If you get on Audioholics or AudioScienceReview you will see them all together, and the amount of snark and negativity and judgement they have towards people who claim to hear differences borderlines on a religion. It is a strange phenomena. I don't see that from the other group. I haven't seen a thread on audiosciencereview where somebody gets on and tries to shove the concept of using Mundorf AG+ caps for power filtering and telling everyone who doesn't that they are stupid and deaf. I never see people belittling others for not using NOS Blackgate capacitors in their DACs and saying "Oh, you use Kaisei? Pssshh, nice try but nothing beats the original, loser." That just doesn't happen. There is always one side who is being aggressive and condescending, and this is perhaps my favorite thing about audiophiles.
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-exactly: there isn't any real substantive research on these sorts of topics.
There have been measurement-based theories (like Clarity's white papers) - but nothing yet (in this context) that substantively says measurement "A" results in subjective response "B" with a widely held/reviewed determination.
Nobody yet does this (in this context) because it's not important scientifically, and because correlating anything with a subjective response is prone to poor testing (due to a plethora of variables).
(..although, when I say "infancy" - it is possible that no one will ever really test (quality research w/ review) for something like this, so perhaps it's a "stillborn".)
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I've said many times that if all the skeptics in audio were to put money in a Kickstarter/GofundMe to pay for rigorous double-blind and peer-reviewed studies about cables/caps/yadda yadda instead of repeating the same arguments like automatons - maybe some progress would be made. Certainly the audio world would benefit.
But it won't happen. Because the tribalism is the point.
As for ClarityCaps, you'd have to be deaf not to hear the difference between any of the CCs and, say, a Bennic or Dayton polyprop cap. Whether or not the cost is worth it is a different argument entirely.
But it won't happen. Because the tribalism is the point.
As for ClarityCaps, you'd have to be deaf not to hear the difference between any of the CCs and, say, a Bennic or Dayton polyprop cap. Whether or not the cost is worth it is a different argument entirely.
Yes, even if you can find a subjective DIFFERENCE..
1. Is that difference better (in the context of a vast number of variables), and
2. IF it is better - is it worth the added cost relative to other *components?
Difference alone is questionable, adding #1 and then piling on #2 starts into at least questioning the overall design of the audio component (..like a loudspeaker).
Still, if you aren't willing to put-in the effort to redesign OR have what you consider to be the absolute best design for you - that's at that point where passive component swapping may make sense (though without any guarantee of improvement): and it's that way for a LOT of people.
*again, back to the very sensible suggestion looking elsewhere for upgrades (drivers, cabinet materials, etc..)
1. Is that difference better (in the context of a vast number of variables), and
2. IF it is better - is it worth the added cost relative to other *components?
Difference alone is questionable, adding #1 and then piling on #2 starts into at least questioning the overall design of the audio component (..like a loudspeaker).
Still, if you aren't willing to put-in the effort to redesign OR have what you consider to be the absolute best design for you - that's at that point where passive component swapping may make sense (though without any guarantee of improvement): and it's that way for a LOT of people.
*again, back to the very sensible suggestion looking elsewhere for upgrades (drivers, cabinet materials, etc..)
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