Years ago, I followed SY's* methodology and did some testing with the guys I used to test, subjectively, my amp designs. The method was use a large multipole Shallco switch with caps wire up to the poles, matched on my B&K bridge. Front panel was not marked beyond position number. No one ever even got close to a statistically reliable result.
Agreed. Done plenty of my own research though, hence my position.
* Haven't seen SY about in ages. Hope he is well.
Ok, that (research) may be substantive enough for you to extrapolate those results to any number of other situations/variables - but would the scientific community agree to such a test, and if so - would they then also extrapolate that result?
@BrettG,
nothing wrong to think about testing under blind conditions - as SY advocates - but unfortunately wrt listening tests he routinely forgot to mention the importance of training under the specific test conditions before trying to find out, if participants are able to detect a difference under these specific conditions.
We did some blind tests with film caps back in ~1985 and were able to detect differences between film types (polyester vs polypropylen) when used as coupling capacitors, not for speaker purposes, though.
I think, SY is still active at the audiosciencereview.com forum.
nothing wrong to think about testing under blind conditions - as SY advocates - but unfortunately wrt listening tests he routinely forgot to mention the importance of training under the specific test conditions before trying to find out, if participants are able to detect a difference under these specific conditions.
We did some blind tests with film caps back in ~1985 and were able to detect differences between film types (polyester vs polypropylen) when used as coupling capacitors, not for speaker purposes, though.
I think, SY is still active at the audiosciencereview.com forum.
Probably not enough to present it to AES beyond an initial findings. However, I didn't extrapolate results from this to anything else.
Not me. That was part of the testing process.
I have an account there, but almost never post. I'll look him up.
Note, that when I did these tests, I really wanted people to be able to uncover differences that I could not conventionally measure to improve my amp designs. Over many tests and variations, I saw no correlation between purported sighted audible differences and test results. So if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, I'm inclined to believe it's a duck when there is no contrary evidence to show it's a chicken.
What I find hard to grasp is that people I do not know personally (or at least have corresponded well with) usually do not respond with angst or opposition to my tested findings or situations I've laid out from my past experiences. And yet, there are those that think I'm harboring ill-will towards others by reporting my findings.
To those that know me well, I am nothing but a speaker of my findings of truth as I experienced them. I was originally a skeptic, and knew no different. There have been times where the testing was absolutely obvious, and even untrained ears or those whom were unaware to the test at hand were able to detect the change, and follow with identifying the component A or B.
However, the pool of people has never been large enough to resemble that it is more than a chance occurrence in statistics. This is where the problem lies.
I have changed many a mind on this particular area of proposed subjective snake oil, even those that thought there could absolutely be no change to observe.
"The skeptic need not entertain, as for the fear that he could be wrong." -Me.
Wolf
To those that know me well, I am nothing but a speaker of my findings of truth as I experienced them. I was originally a skeptic, and knew no different. There have been times where the testing was absolutely obvious, and even untrained ears or those whom were unaware to the test at hand were able to detect the change, and follow with identifying the component A or B.
However, the pool of people has never been large enough to resemble that it is more than a chance occurrence in statistics. This is where the problem lies.
I have changed many a mind on this particular area of proposed subjective snake oil, even those that thought there could absolutely be no change to observe.
"The skeptic need not entertain, as for the fear that he could be wrong." -Me.
Wolf
Furthermore- SY was set on having added resistances to match ESR between capacitors. In this mantra, you are both altering what is manufactured, and the proposed average usage of said components by doing so.
Who actually measures the ESR of the caps and compensates for them in their builds? No one does. This is why some capacitors actually sound different, at least according to SY's findings. To me- the inherent ESR of a component is what makes it different than the next. If that is the source of the 'questionably audible differences', than why compensate for it as that is the supposed cause.
Beyond this, and the composition, and the stiffness of their casings; nothing has been surmised as being the absolute cause.
Wolf
PS- I think it's "SIY" on ASR, and I have not seen SY at least as the same cyber moniker present over there.
Who actually measures the ESR of the caps and compensates for them in their builds? No one does. This is why some capacitors actually sound different, at least according to SY's findings. To me- the inherent ESR of a component is what makes it different than the next. If that is the source of the 'questionably audible differences', than why compensate for it as that is the supposed cause.
Beyond this, and the composition, and the stiffness of their casings; nothing has been surmised as being the absolute cause.
Wolf
PS- I think it's "SIY" on ASR, and I have not seen SY at least as the same cyber moniker present over there.
+1 : Had to give up and sadly delete posts on ASR (last time about my Kef R900's crossover tweaks/experimentations)
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I don't recall posting that. I certainly didn't in this thread.
Thanks for fixing that.
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Experimenting in my STA 326 FDA, i came to think kinda "coherence of the whole creation" from physic to biologic when i came to realize that i find polyester caps (MKS) sounding "thin plastic crumpled leaf" like some survival blanket, and polyprops (MKP) sounding like Dynaudio speakers...as if the caps foils material transmited its sound signature into electric signal. Same thing for silver kinda "cold sparkle"...
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Does real strawberry taste better than ersatz strawberry? PROVE IT
We're dealing in an area that has a decidedly somewhat unscientific component.
All I know is I can often hear differences subtle as they are where most others say there are none. And Im not hurting anyone or even spending that much money really. I know people who spend $50-80k on a sports car and no one bats an eye. Why cant I spend $500 on some caps and inductors? It seems so silly. I'm totally open to the possibility that I realize that there is no difference after I swap components. If thats what I hear I will be the FIRST to admit it. But its fun to experiment 🙂
We're dealing in an area that has a decidedly somewhat unscientific component.
All I know is I can often hear differences subtle as they are where most others say there are none. And Im not hurting anyone or even spending that much money really. I know people who spend $50-80k on a sports car and no one bats an eye. Why cant I spend $500 on some caps and inductors? It seems so silly. I'm totally open to the possibility that I realize that there is no difference after I swap components. If thats what I hear I will be the FIRST to admit it. But its fun to experiment 🙂
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A matter of perspective then:
I "see" your tests as particular to all their variables, and not respective of all situations. My assumption is that you are not conditioning your statements regarding your own tests on capacitors to ONLY those particular tests, but rather are expanding (extrapolating) the results from those tests to make conclusions with variables other than were present with each of your tests.