As this is a DIY forum about StereoCoffee here is an unbiased review of my DIY system that can't be disputed and was not solicited.
It seems the neighbours can hear my music coming though my window when they are in their yard 10 metres away.
When I met them for the first time they told me how much the enjoyed my music. I assumed they had the same tastes.
When they told me how talented I was playing piano and so many other instruments so well, I realised they had no idea they were listening to recorded music.
If authentic sound is the ultimate goal of DIY audio then my system has just kicked one.
It seems the neighbours can hear my music coming though my window when they are in their yard 10 metres away.
When I met them for the first time they told me how much the enjoyed my music. I assumed they had the same tastes.
When they told me how talented I was playing piano and so many other instruments so well, I realised they had no idea they were listening to recorded music.
If authentic sound is the ultimate goal of DIY audio then my system has just kicked one.
I’m happy to change my stance if you can offer credible evidence (I.e. not your experience) to support your claims.
I invite you to do so.... Preferably not riddled with insults.
I’m not closed to change, I’m simply unwilling to accept claims in an application with predictable, measurable attributes controlled within an understood domain of science in the complete absence of supporting data.
This is in fact because I’ve made attempts to hear differences with things such as cables and could not differentiate with any degree of reliability in unsighted testing. Likewise with friends and others who have attempted the same.
So, I did not wake up one day and decide to formulate this view- it is based upon experience through evaluating many of these products.
I can also accept that there may be in some cases the wrong thing is measured, or perhaps our auditory system is not understood fully. However, I believe the burden of proof rests on those who market a product making claims but stating they are unmeasurable or not understood. If you are ingenious enough to develop it, you are ingenious enough to measure it. Find a way!
But, my view is that in the interim it’s unnecessary to wade through unsupported options while theres a plethora of alternatives that meet the above criteria effortlessly and provide enjoyment of audio.
It’s also unwise given the long history of disingenuous behavior in this industry.
It’s quite possible to reproduce realistic piano to fool the neighbors using a variety of other methods.
Again, this is a marketing / sales behavior issue not an issue lodged at LDRs or cables or any other component or topology.
I’m not sure how many times one can repeat the same thing.... I hope it may register soon.
If another discipline, such as medicine for example, operated using the criteria you advocate you’d have to drive a snowplow to the supermarket to make your way through the trail of the dead.
This is how a society develops from burning people at the stake...
YouTube
Chris; is a Stereocoffee on its way to XRK?
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Sure.
Let’s just call it what it is.
The B1 with the Korg triode is a rough example of this kind of thinking.
There’s a whole thread on it here, and I believe boards for sale.
Likely projection. Projection may help a fragile ego reduce anxiety, but at the cost of a certain dissociation, such as in dissociative identity disorder.
Congratulations, you have proven your superior intelligence again.
sarcasm
/ˈsɑːkaz(ə)m/
noun
noun: sarcasm; plural noun: sarcasms
1 the use of irony to mock or convey contempt."she didn't like the note of sarcasm in his voice"
2 synonyms:
3 derision, mockery, ridicule, satire, irony, scorn, sneering, scoffing, gibing, taunting; trenchancy, mordancy, acerbity; rarecausticity, mordacity "his voice was heavy with sarcasm"
4 Let's humour Chris ... as used by you in a previous post.
DF96. Here is some information that might help you understand my statement.
"It seems the neighbours can hear my music coming though my window when they are in their yard 10 metres away. When I met them for the first time they told me how much the enjoyed my music. I assumed they had the same tastes. When they told me how talented I was playing piano and so many other instruments so well, I realised they had no idea they were listening to recorded music. If authentic sound is the ultimate goal of DIY audio then my system has just kicked one."
For accuracy:
1. I have two neighbours not just a 'wife in the kitchen' who listens to my system as you state.
2. The 'wife in the kitchen' was a music teacher!
3. If you care to do some research you might learn that ESL panels are different to conventional speakers.
"This is because you are listening to a small line source rather than a point source (most conventional speakers). The attenuation with distance is 3dB per doubling of distance for a line source while it is 6dB for a point source. As an example, if you measure the 505’s at say 1 metre and they are delivering say 70dB, at 2 metres they will be 67dB (-3dB) and at 4 metres they will be 64dB. If you measure a conventional point source speaker in the same way at one metre it is say 70dB, at 2 metres it will be 64 dB and at 4 metres it will be 58dB. This is why they use line source speakers in a concert hall environment, there is a lot less loss at distance." Source ER Audio
Please don't automatically go to Google and come back with something that contradicts statement 3, which was sourced from a well respected ESL designer/manufacturer (ER Audio) who moved to Australia from the UK who also supply repair kits for most ESL brands.
"It seems the neighbours can hear my music coming though my window when they are in their yard 10 metres away. When I met them for the first time they told me how much the enjoyed my music. I assumed they had the same tastes. When they told me how talented I was playing piano and so many other instruments so well, I realised they had no idea they were listening to recorded music. If authentic sound is the ultimate goal of DIY audio then my system has just kicked one."
For accuracy:
1. I have two neighbours not just a 'wife in the kitchen' who listens to my system as you state.
2. The 'wife in the kitchen' was a music teacher!
3. If you care to do some research you might learn that ESL panels are different to conventional speakers.
"This is because you are listening to a small line source rather than a point source (most conventional speakers). The attenuation with distance is 3dB per doubling of distance for a line source while it is 6dB for a point source. As an example, if you measure the 505’s at say 1 metre and they are delivering say 70dB, at 2 metres they will be 67dB (-3dB) and at 4 metres they will be 64dB. If you measure a conventional point source speaker in the same way at one metre it is say 70dB, at 2 metres it will be 64 dB and at 4 metres it will be 58dB. This is why they use line source speakers in a concert hall environment, there is a lot less loss at distance." Source ER Audio
Please don't automatically go to Google and come back with something that contradicts statement 3, which was sourced from a well respected ESL designer/manufacturer (ER Audio) who moved to Australia from the UK who also supply repair kits for most ESL brands.
Did you know that sound travels further and sounds louder when it's purposely or unintentionally distorted.
Cheers George
Thanks George for your contribution but you don't make sense.
Please explain why would anyone interested in quality sound would listen to distorted music? Would you listen to distorted sound?
My whole life has been spent pursuing what I consider to be fine sound not just good sound.
I'm old enough to know what REALLY distorted sound is and this is why I moved with the times and upgraded to the latest SC LDR, Hypex nCore and 505 hybrid mini panels. Since then I haven't heard any audible distortion.
Have you ever considered updating your own system and experiencing what you didn't think possible?
Again, your system may sound wonderful. However the LDR may also contain distortion.
These two are not mutually exclusive.
How does this provide greater accuracy?
This provides no information of value to the conversation in the absence of measurement data.
Again, anecdotal.
See Wikipedia for why anecdotal evidence is generally considered of less value than empirical evidence.
“Anecdotal evidence is often unscientific or pseudoscientific because various forms of cognitive bias may affect the collection or presentation of evidence. For instance, someone who claims to have had an encounter with a supernatural being or alien may present a very vivid story, but this is not falsifiable. This phenomenon can also happen to large groups of people through subjective validation.”
and
“A common way anecdotal evidence becomes unscientific is through fallacious reasoning such as the Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy, the human tendency to assume that if one event happens after another, then the first must be the cause of the second. Another fallacy involves inductive reasoning. For instance, if an anecdote illustrates a desired conclusion rather than a logical conclusion, it is considered a faulty or hasty generalization.[11] For example, here is anecdotal evidence presented as proof of a desired conclusion:
There's abundant proof that drinking water cures cancer. Just last week I read about a girl who was dying of cancer. After drinking water she was cured.”
This is much like your window story.
And more:
“By contrast, in science and logic, the "relative strength of an explanation" is based upon its ability to be tested or repeated, proven to be due to the stated cause, and verifiable under neutral conditions in a manner that other researchers will agree has been performed competently, and can check for themselves.”
Anecdotal evidence - Wikipedia
So tell me again why measurable data is unnecessary?
You don't provide any details about yourself. You have never contributed to this forum. You have set out to destroy Chris without having ever dealt with him. You have no knowledge or interest in DIY LDR products.
Can you provide evidence of marketing claims on components that allow DIY enthusiasts enjoy audio that would stand up in a law court?
Opinions on the importance of data to me:
Too much perefect specs can be a bad thing, trust your ears and the specs.
As always trust your ears.
As for all your negative comments, it's bizzare that someone thinks they can give ANY constructive input when they have not even listened to or built one, and who admits they listen to oxidized pots that are over 20 years old.
I also beleive that it sounds very special, to the point of saying to one self that all other devices active or passive sound flawed in some way when listening to one, it's instantly reconizable.
These are comments from George and I agree with all of them them. Do you?
Can you provide evidence of marketing claims on components that allow DIY enthusiasts enjoy audio that would stand up in a law court?
Opinions on the importance of data to me:
Too much perefect specs can be a bad thing, trust your ears and the specs.
As always trust your ears.
As for all your negative comments, it's bizzare that someone thinks they can give ANY constructive input when they have not even listened to or built one, and who admits they listen to oxidized pots that are over 20 years old.
I also beleive that it sounds very special, to the point of saying to one self that all other devices active or passive sound flawed in some way when listening to one, it's instantly reconizable.
These are comments from George and I agree with all of them them. Do you?
I wasn't aware that sarcasm is a sign of superior intelligence, so thank you for your kindness and for providing a definition for the benefit of those who have never come across the word before. Sarcasm is preferable to downright rudeness and veiled threats, as used by some others in this discussion.robmid said:
The fact that someone next door thinks your sound system is actually a small music ensemble is not in itself an endorsement of your chosen volume control. It may be an endorsement of your speakers. A volume control would have to be seriously faulty to fail this test.
Yet another psychologist in the house?
Is that a requirement?
Do you mean monetary contributions (which many do not make) or intellectual contributions?
I am not aware that anyone in this thread has set out to "destroy Chris"; my main aim is to educate Chris.
That is a common opinion. It is not supported by facts. Ears can be easily fooled, especially via eyes. Don't trust your ears too much.
It is bizarre that someone might give more credence to their own ears than centuries of science.
Sadly, that is a strong argument for the device being flawed. All good devices will sound similar; any that sound significantly different are very likely to be flawed.
I'm curious if your neighbors would have been able to tell the difference between your system and say a Bose setup. Once again what you have posted is meaningless. Maybe your neighbors haven't heard anything better than a table radio. Without being there I can't even know if your neighbors weren't possibly inebriated and inable to make any clear distinctions.
What you still aren't able to understand is the simple fact that the output isn't going to be any better than the input. Its simply impossible. THE ONLY difference between the voltage divider(LDR) and a good control is the wipers possible inability to maintain decet contact. Even then a shot of contact cleaner will make the volume controls wiper contact like new again.
Once again...no specs, no valid Audio magazine write ups to be blunt nothing credible other than several buyers devotion to the product.
If you bothered to read my post you would understand that my neighbours didn't even realise they were listening to recorded music. They thought it was live music.
One of them is a music teacher, who presumably has heard live instruments. Have you?
You might make judgements when you are inebriated. That doesn't mean everyone else does.
I was wondering why it took you so long to get back on the attack.
I admire how you are so confident about your theoretical knowledge of DIY and LDR's and your willingness to educate others who have hands on experience.
FYI these 3 statements were made by George and I fully agree with them because listening is the way most DIY projects are assessed by builders. But it seems you know better than everyone else, including George who has a vast knowledge of the subject.
How about stopping your pompous attacks on others until you have had experience building a DIY LDR attenuator yourself. It seems by reading some of your 'advice' that you haven't even heard one.
DIY gives everyone a great opportunity to do something practical not just theoretical.
Why would I want to build a flawed device?
You don't seem to grasp that the way science works is that existing knowledge can be used to accurately predict the results of experiments that have not yet been done. That is why I can confidently predict that the highest possible quality LED power source cannot affect the linearity of the LDR in an optocoupler. As I have said, a really bad PSU could result in intermodulation but a sufficiently good PSU should not be hard to make (George agrees) so therefore any LDR volume control which sounds significantly different from the rest is presumably worse than the rest. Now you either understand this as a technical matter or you don't. Merely pointing out the truth is not "pompous".
You don't seem to grasp that the way science works is that existing knowledge can be used to accurately predict the results of experiments that have not yet been done. That is why I can confidently predict that the highest possible quality LED power source cannot affect the linearity of the LDR in an optocoupler. As I have said, a really bad PSU could result in intermodulation but a sufficiently good PSU should not be hard to make (George agrees) so therefore any LDR volume control which sounds significantly different from the rest is presumably worse than the rest. Now you either understand this as a technical matter or you don't. Merely pointing out the truth is not "pompous".
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