Hello,
I've been using a pair of woofer assisted Visaton FRS8 for 13 years. The build utilizes 2 x FRS8 - 4 Ohm in a 6.1L closed box and a Visaton W130 S - 8 Ohm in a TL with length calculated by 1/4 of the wavelength of Fs = 50Hz. The crossover frequency is 350Hz. The design is taken from a professional but my execution may not be the best.
Back in the days this was a budget oriented project. I was finishing my new apartment and used the furniturist to cut the pieces from the waste material.
13 years and 2 kids later all of the drivers are poked and the bottom part of the front board is peeled off.
I’ve decided that I will stick to the Full Range + woofer philosophy and redo the speakers with new front boards, new drivers and Bi-amping.
I would like to add some high-end-ness
to my system and I’m leaning towards buying a Visaton B100 for the Full Range part in the closed box. According to Visaton's website B100 is recommended for a 5.8L closed box with FC=107Hz. Here is a simulation in my box made with Visaton’s BoxSim software.
So after the above introduction I would like to ask if there is a better suited driver for this enclosure? I’m thinking that my goal should be to select an audiophile tested and approved full range driver which should be usable down to 110-120Hz in the existing box. This way I should be able to use the TL part as a subwoofer.
Actually I'm thinking of transforming the TL into a 28L vented box but this should be another topic in the subwoofer section.
All recommendations will be highly appreciated!
I've been using a pair of woofer assisted Visaton FRS8 for 13 years. The build utilizes 2 x FRS8 - 4 Ohm in a 6.1L closed box and a Visaton W130 S - 8 Ohm in a TL with length calculated by 1/4 of the wavelength of Fs = 50Hz. The crossover frequency is 350Hz. The design is taken from a professional but my execution may not be the best.
Back in the days this was a budget oriented project. I was finishing my new apartment and used the furniturist to cut the pieces from the waste material.
13 years and 2 kids later all of the drivers are poked and the bottom part of the front board is peeled off.
I’ve decided that I will stick to the Full Range + woofer philosophy and redo the speakers with new front boards, new drivers and Bi-amping.
I would like to add some high-end-ness
to my system and I’m leaning towards buying a Visaton B100 for the Full Range part in the closed box. According to Visaton's website B100 is recommended for a 5.8L closed box with FC=107Hz. Here is a simulation in my box made with Visaton’s BoxSim software.
So after the above introduction I would like to ask if there is a better suited driver for this enclosure? I’m thinking that my goal should be to select an audiophile tested and approved full range driver which should be usable down to 110-120Hz in the existing box. This way I should be able to use the TL part as a subwoofer.
Actually I'm thinking of transforming the TL into a 28L vented box but this should be another topic in the subwoofer section.
All recommendations will be highly appreciated!
Mid chamber is somewhat forgiving.
Most make them large as possible and stuff the chamber
with a heavy fill.
Otherwise if smaller volume the speaker is on a crossover anyways.
In general sim should help see that a smaller box has a highpass
behavior.
Again large or small and usually stuffed heavy with fill.
If a box is on the smaller side impedance will
rise. So the peak could be a concern for
crossover design. Which the sim will present.
Really depends on crossover point, and can be no issue
or a mild one. If the crossover is near or at the impedance peak
Most make them large as possible and stuff the chamber
with a heavy fill.
Otherwise if smaller volume the speaker is on a crossover anyways.
In general sim should help see that a smaller box has a highpass
behavior.
Again large or small and usually stuffed heavy with fill.
If a box is on the smaller side impedance will
rise. So the peak could be a concern for
crossover design. Which the sim will present.
Really depends on crossover point, and can be no issue
or a mild one. If the crossover is near or at the impedance peak
I'm planning to use a software crossover and Bi-amping. The gods of the passive crossovers weren't on my side in my previous experiences
I still haven't got DSP and I'm going to try EqualizerAPO and rePhase filtering tools.
So there will be a good amounth of versatility in the crossover design.
I still haven't got DSP and I'm going to try EqualizerAPO and rePhase filtering tools.
So there will be a good amounth of versatility in the crossover design.
Is there a reason you need two full range drivers in parallel?
You will get higher sensitivity but will have to pad it down to match the lower sensitivity of a single woofer (no more than 83-84dB after baffle step loss). The two drivers will have interferences and cause a vertical lobe or comb effect. It’s not terrible but does cause some loss of vertical sound stage and image accuracy. You might be better off with a single driver.
If you want another speaker for another 13 years maybe try ScanSpeak 10F/8424 or Visaton B80. Both top performers.
Your TL looks good. I would do a passive XO, but that’s me.
If you are looking for a proven FAST/WAW TL speaker, my 10F/RS225 design has been built by many people and all happy users.
Beautiful example by as8912:
You will get higher sensitivity but will have to pad it down to match the lower sensitivity of a single woofer (no more than 83-84dB after baffle step loss). The two drivers will have interferences and cause a vertical lobe or comb effect. It’s not terrible but does cause some loss of vertical sound stage and image accuracy. You might be better off with a single driver.
If you want another speaker for another 13 years maybe try ScanSpeak 10F/8424 or Visaton B80. Both top performers.
Your TL looks good. I would do a passive XO, but that’s me.
If you are looking for a proven FAST/WAW TL speaker, my 10F/RS225 design has been built by many people and all happy users.
Beautiful example by as8912:
Ooops, sorry I forgot to write it explicitly - I'm going for a single FR driver.
I suppose the original author of the project decided to use 2 x FRS8 because of the low sensitivity of 82dB.
I thought my explanations and simulation for a B100 in a closed box would made it clear.
Thanks for the suggestions! I will try some simulations and check where I can source them.
I suppose the original author of the project decided to use 2 x FRS8 because of the low sensitivity of 82dB.
I thought my explanations and simulation for a B100 in a closed box would made it clear.
Thanks for the suggestions! I will try some simulations and check where I can source them.
OK here are my actual contenders based on several days of reading and checking actual availability and prices:
1. FaitalPro 4FE42 (66EUR) - brand new almost zero information except press release
2. Visaton B 80 (77EUR)
3. Markaudio Alpair-7MS (80EUR)
4. Tang Band W4-2142 (85EUR)
5. Visaton B 100 (86EUR)
6. Tang Band W4-1337SDF (95EUR)
I haven't heard or even seen any of them.
I'll be happy to get most out-of-the-box performance because I don't have much free time to play. Jist a HPF for starters.
1. FaitalPro 4FE42 (66EUR) - brand new almost zero information except press release
2. Visaton B 80 (77EUR)
3. Markaudio Alpair-7MS (80EUR)
4. Tang Band W4-2142 (85EUR)
5. Visaton B 100 (86EUR)
6. Tang Band W4-1337SDF (95EUR)
I haven't heard or even seen any of them.
I'll be happy to get most out-of-the-box performance because I don't have much free time to play. Jist a HPF for starters.
3FE22-8 is also excellent full range. It’s one of many that I tested in a blind virtual audition. B80 and 10F/8424 were also highly rated. A very good budget driver is the TC9FD and its fiberglass brother the TG9FD. A surprise entry that did very well is OEM car driver from Jeep! It’s got a funky bezel meant for a car but many people on DIYA voted for it.
These threads contain sound clips recorded under identical controlled conditions.
Round 1:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...nd-comparison-3in-5in-full-range-drivers.html
Round 2:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...d-comparison-3in-5in-drivers-round-2-a-2.html
Round 3:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...ind-comparison-2in-4in-drivers-round-3-a.html
Round 4:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...ind-comparison-2in-4in-drivers-round-4-a.html
Round 5:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...d-comparison-2in-3-5in-drivers-round-5-a.html
Round 6:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...-blind-abx-test-enabled-ff85wk-round-6-a.html
These threads contain sound clips recorded under identical controlled conditions.
Round 1:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...nd-comparison-3in-5in-full-range-drivers.html
Round 2:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...d-comparison-3in-5in-drivers-round-2-a-2.html
Round 3:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...ind-comparison-2in-4in-drivers-round-3-a.html
Round 4:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...ind-comparison-2in-4in-drivers-round-4-a.html
Round 5:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...d-comparison-2in-3-5in-drivers-round-5-a.html
Round 6:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...-blind-abx-test-enabled-ff85wk-round-6-a.html
Attachments
The first is true, just puzzlecoated mine. Of the drivers X in the first picture i’d choose the 3FE. But overall i would choose the Alpair 7.3 (althou it is EOL and hard to find, P7HD is its evolution)
But there is lots to object about X’s video auditions — one is auditioning so much more than just the driver that one cannot really tell the most important stuff.
dave
Last edited:
xrk971, thank you for you time and effort! You've covered most of the drivers that I'm considering.
I've already looked into the rounds 1 to 4 but I'm yet to listen the recordings.
What stops me from making conclusion by listening to your records is the higher XO 350-500Hz for testing.
My self education for the last week has led me to this topic https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/an-improved-transmission-line-alignment.243483/ and the big dip of every TL.
I've made the simulation of my TL and the dip is between 160Hz and 200Hz. Then I tested with REW and indeed 165Hz was not audible from the woofer!!! They were coming only from the FRS. I don't know if this is some kind of failure or just the effect of the TL.
That is the reason why I'm so indecisive. I've focused on finding a driver that can go down to 150Hz to cover the TL dip. And that is why I've eliminated the 3" models.
Dave,
according to Markaudio the successor of 7.3 is the 7MS. And the Pulvia is "trickled down from our statement Alpair range".
7MS is still available here in Europe. I suppose that this would be your pick?
Both of you have huge experience and I am very thankful for your time!
I've already looked into the rounds 1 to 4 but I'm yet to listen the recordings.
What stops me from making conclusion by listening to your records is the higher XO 350-500Hz for testing.
My self education for the last week has led me to this topic https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/an-improved-transmission-line-alignment.243483/ and the big dip of every TL.
I've made the simulation of my TL and the dip is between 160Hz and 200Hz. Then I tested with REW and indeed 165Hz was not audible from the woofer!!! They were coming only from the FRS. I don't know if this is some kind of failure or just the effect of the TL.
That is the reason why I'm so indecisive. I've focused on finding a driver that can go down to 150Hz to cover the TL dip. And that is why I've eliminated the 3" models.
Dave,
according to Markaudio the successor of 7.3 is the 7MS. And the Pulvia is "trickled down from our statement Alpair range".
7MS is still available here in Europe. I suppose that this would be your pick?
Both of you have huge experience and I am very thankful for your time!
If you want to reach below 350Hz, you should get a larger driver that can easily do 80Hz or below so that it’s not strained and keeps distortion low.
Please look at W5-2143. Reaches 55Hz easily. Will do 100 Hz very well and clearly.
90dB and great midrange and hits 20kHz. Looks beautiful. Cast basket. Nice price.
I've ordered pair of MA Alpair 10p.
Already shipped and expected to arrive in 5-6 days.
The price was ~30EUR/pc less than W5-2143 so I pulled the trigger.
Now I'm confused what to do... 10p it's actually better woofer than W130S, it doesn't make sense to keep using W130S
For starters for the break-in period my easiest mod will be to mount 10p on the old baffle in the place of the W130 and disconnect the FRS8s and XO from the system. The TL is calculated for different Fs, Sd, Qes and Qms. It won't be optimal. Don't know if it will be terrible.
Should I keep the original plan to put them in the closed box and keep the W130S in the TL but with lower XO?
or select different woofer with higher sensitivity or double woofers and switch to bass reflex lower part?
Already shipped and expected to arrive in 5-6 days.
The price was ~30EUR/pc less than W5-2143 so I pulled the trigger.
Now I'm confused what to do... 10p it's actually better woofer than W130S, it doesn't make sense to keep using W130S
For starters for the break-in period my easiest mod will be to mount 10p on the old baffle in the place of the W130 and disconnect the FRS8s and XO from the system. The TL is calculated for different Fs, Sd, Qes and Qms. It won't be optimal. Don't know if it will be terrible.
Should I keep the original plan to put them in the closed box and keep the W130S in the TL but with lower XO?
or select different woofer with higher sensitivity or double woofers and switch to bass reflex lower part?
