I'm interested in doing another two way build of an existing design. Either stand mount or small floor stander and just need a little nudge in the right direction to make the decision as there are many options out there. I listen to a mixture of genres predominantly via digital streaming source but still have CD and Vinyl. I particularly enjoy designs that resolve vocals and mid range well with detail but not over analytical. I like a good amount of bass but detailed.
My listening space is approximately 12ft (3.6m) x 16ft (4.9m) with the speakers positioned on the longest wall and listening position opposite and roughly 3ft (1m) high.
I've had speakers with a mixture of designs, metal cones, coated paper cones (I do like) and I've had soft domes and planar tweeters - but I'm not so much bothered by the ingredients as the cake. I've shortlisted some designs but what gives me pause is that many are designed for free space and having them near (but not up to) a back wall can change the signature of the sound. I also usually angle my small floor standing speakers back by about 6-8 degrees to get the drivers to point to ear level.
So with this said the criteria is:
Design:
2 way ported
6" or 7" mid bass
Small floor stander or large stand mount - max overall height 70cm (27in)
15 litres - 17 litres
Position
Close to wall 30cm - 45cm (12in - 18in) - to front of speaker
Sound profile
Excellent midrange
Wide sound stage and separation of instruments
Good detailed punchy bass (within the limits of the design size)
Detailed and nuanced but not overly analytical
Non fatiguing to listen to
Budget
£350 ($450) - £500 ($650) for drivers and crossovers
Shortlist of kits/designs
Paul Carmody Amiga
Jeff Bagby Mandolin
Jeff Bagby Adelphos
John Krute SR71
Ampslab Starling TA
Madisound Seas CA18RNX
Smaller alternates
Paul Carmody Carrera
My listening space is approximately 12ft (3.6m) x 16ft (4.9m) with the speakers positioned on the longest wall and listening position opposite and roughly 3ft (1m) high.
I've had speakers with a mixture of designs, metal cones, coated paper cones (I do like) and I've had soft domes and planar tweeters - but I'm not so much bothered by the ingredients as the cake. I've shortlisted some designs but what gives me pause is that many are designed for free space and having them near (but not up to) a back wall can change the signature of the sound. I also usually angle my small floor standing speakers back by about 6-8 degrees to get the drivers to point to ear level.
So with this said the criteria is:
Design:
2 way ported
6" or 7" mid bass
Small floor stander or large stand mount - max overall height 70cm (27in)
15 litres - 17 litres
Position
Close to wall 30cm - 45cm (12in - 18in) - to front of speaker
Sound profile
Excellent midrange
Wide sound stage and separation of instruments
Good detailed punchy bass (within the limits of the design size)
Detailed and nuanced but not overly analytical
Non fatiguing to listen to
Budget
£350 ($450) - £500 ($650) for drivers and crossovers
Shortlist of kits/designs
Paul Carmody Amiga
Jeff Bagby Mandolin
Jeff Bagby Adelphos
John Krute SR71
Ampslab Starling TA
Madisound Seas CA18RNX
Smaller alternates
Paul Carmody Carrera
Attachments
Last edited:
For close to wall mounting, you might like to consider an infinite baffle design.
I see all your possible choices carry dollar signs - what about UK supplier Wilmslow Audio?
WA HB1 Loudspeaker
I see all your possible choices carry dollar signs - what about UK supplier Wilmslow Audio?
WA HB1 Loudspeaker
I did have a look at Wilmslow and IPL acoustics. I agree that IB would be better for close wall positions but I do like a bit of low end bass so was hoping for a ported design.
Have a look at SB Satori line and the Wavecor "Balanced Drive" line. Troels has a lot of designs but some of the crossover values are not published; others are open source. At least you can get some ideas. I have several Satori drivers and they are very good. I have a new Wavecor on order; they are also supposed to be very good (the BD series anyway).
I specifically designed my speakers to work well pushed against a back wall, since that's where I was planning on using them. The footprint is something like 9"x7", and you could make them as tall as you like.
There's a little info here: FIR Processing | grimshaw-audio
But I was mostly writing about the implementation of FIR processing.
Let me know if you need any more info.
Chris
There's a little info here: FIR Processing | grimshaw-audio
But I was mostly writing about the implementation of FIR processing.
Let me know if you need any more info.
Chris
Hi Chris, so I sort of followed the article but I wasn't completely clear if you used FIR to model your crossover before building it or if you are rooting the audio signal through your laptop and then processing it before pushing it to your speakers? Apologies if it's a stupid question!
There's a passive crossover. I'm applying processing in the laptop to flatten out the frequency/phase response.
The speakers sound great driven without any processing. I prefer a flat LF response so I EQ'd that first, which is an improvement for me. The FIR improvements are more subtle.
Chris
The speakers sound great driven without any processing. I prefer a flat LF response so I EQ'd that first, which is an improvement for me. The FIR improvements are more subtle.
Chris
Of the designs you mention, I'd go with Jeff Bagby's or John Krutke. Jeff designed the crossovers for my homebrew speakers and they sound excellent. Every time I get the urge to build another pair of speakers, I listen to mine again and figure nope. Won't sound better than these.
Building the Jeff Bagby Adelphos on a stand(wide bottom trapezoid) that is designed to become the woofer for a future 3-way is a good "one trip to the woodshop" plan.
======
The transient response from a sealed midrange is superior to a ported midbass. Give some consideration to building a 3-way with a sealed midrange and a ported/sealed woofer. This can be a 2-step or 3-step plan.
-ported 2-way;
-sealed 2-way on top of a ported woofer;
-sealed 2-way on top of a sealed woofer.
There are a few narrow front baffle + wide side panel 3-way designs using a sealed 10" or 12" near the bottom of the side panel.
======
Study the cost/value/appearance of basic room treatment, like absorption material (artistic rug?) on the wall behind your sofa.
======
The transient response from a sealed midrange is superior to a ported midbass. Give some consideration to building a 3-way with a sealed midrange and a ported/sealed woofer. This can be a 2-step or 3-step plan.
-ported 2-way;
-sealed 2-way on top of a ported woofer;
-sealed 2-way on top of a sealed woofer.
There are a few narrow front baffle + wide side panel 3-way designs using a sealed 10" or 12" near the bottom of the side panel.
======
Study the cost/value/appearance of basic room treatment, like absorption material (artistic rug?) on the wall behind your sofa.
The problem is I simply don't have the space to go to a 3 way design and I can't pull the speakers two feet out into the room. They have to be slim floorstander or stand mounts to be able to accommodate.
Ideally not really more than 7" or 8" wide and 30" tall. I can angle them back slightly say tilted 6 degrees but that's it.
A 5.5" or 6" midbass design would be better for my listening space. Either way they need to be nearer to the back wall. They can port out the side if necessary.
Ideally not really more than 7" or 8" wide and 30" tall. I can angle them back slightly say tilted 6 degrees but that's it.
A 5.5" or 6" midbass design would be better for my listening space. Either way they need to be nearer to the back wall. They can port out the side if necessary.
I just had another thought. If you are not in a big hurry; the new SB Satori TexTreme cone drivers will be here soon. Match that up with a Be tweeter; probably be hard to beat!
Someone did a version already but I'll have to do a search later; 1st coffee now and I still have major brain haze from just waking up
Someone did a version already but I'll have to do a search later; 1st coffee now and I still have major brain haze from just waking up
They look interesting. However after some thought I think I'm focusing in on a smaller floor stander. Maximum 15 litres so the volume and dimensions fit comfortably in my listening space. I think this puts the Carrera in first place, or a similar two way with a smaller 5" - 5.5" mid bass driver.
I have the Satori MW16P white cone 4 Ohm in 15 liters vented and it works very well here. The white cone TSP's are slightly different than the gray cone so 15 liters works. I think the gray cones need more like 18 to 22 liters if vented. 5 to 5.5 inch will get you better mids and less bass all else being equal but, as usual, some exceptions. Nothing wrong with going with a proven design for sure; I just always do my own thing. Best of luck; let us know what you finally decide on!
Fascinating, so the white ones are a different cone material or just not dyed? I'm a box builder so if I go my own way I usually recruit my friend who helps with the crossovers but unfortunately he's just far too busy.
I don't know what the differences are but they are different enough that box sizes are different; the white cones are lighter in mass. usually. I think the material is basically the same; maybe I'll try to look into this in more detail later.
http://sbacoustics.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/6½in-SATORI-MW16PNW-4.pdf
http://sbacoustics.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/6½in-SATORI-MW16P-4.pdf
Actually, the differences here are not as far apart as those of the 7 1/2 inch Satori gray vs white cone. It has been quite some time so I don't really remember why but I decided the white cone 4 Ohm MW16 did the best match up for my pre-built boxes. At any rate; the Satoris I have tried all sound really good and I think they are hard to beat for the performance you get at this price range. I have said before; I have a Wavecor on order; some say they like the Wavecor Balanced Drive series even better than the SB Satori series! I'll soon find out. Either way; they both have designers from the Scan Speak and Vifa companies.
http://sbacoustics.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/6½in-SATORI-MW16P-4.pdf
Actually, the differences here are not as far apart as those of the 7 1/2 inch Satori gray vs white cone. It has been quite some time so I don't really remember why but I decided the white cone 4 Ohm MW16 did the best match up for my pre-built boxes. At any rate; the Satoris I have tried all sound really good and I think they are hard to beat for the performance you get at this price range. I have said before; I have a Wavecor on order; some say they like the Wavecor Balanced Drive series even better than the SB Satori series! I'll soon find out. Either way; they both have designers from the Scan Speak and Vifa companies.
Put a sheet of 8.5" x 11" paper on the floor for a cabinet footprint evaluation.
Your couch is the focal point for these speakers. Building a cabinet with the tweeter at seated ear level ~34" childran ~36" adult improves soundstage clarity. Consider 0.75" thick walls cabinet: 9" wide, 11" deep, 38" high (+ 1" high bottom rubber floor spacer)
Adelphos kit calls for 15" high x 8.5" wide x 11.5" deep
========
A floor standing Adelphos still looks like a good choice with Satori 6.5" + 1" drivers.
A floor standing Troels Gravensen 61-NAC61 using crisp sounding, lower cost aluminum cone SB_acoustics drivers is popular.
SBAcoustics-61-NAC
Your couch is the focal point for these speakers. Building a cabinet with the tweeter at seated ear level ~34" childran ~36" adult improves soundstage clarity. Consider 0.75" thick walls cabinet: 9" wide, 11" deep, 38" high (+ 1" high bottom rubber floor spacer)
Adelphos kit calls for 15" high x 8.5" wide x 11.5" deep
========
A floor standing Adelphos still looks like a good choice with Satori 6.5" + 1" drivers.
A floor standing Troels Gravensen 61-NAC61 using crisp sounding, lower cost aluminum cone SB_acoustics drivers is popular.
SBAcoustics-61-NAC
I just put SB17NBAC35-4 in 15 litres sealed. I have to have them nigh on against the wall with the side walls not that far away either.
They sound amazing to my ears. The LF is so much better than the B&W DM600 S3 they replaced. The ported BW had great bass for the size but I have realised that the (rear) port was really exciting the room. The bass was everywhere. Good for parties but not very accurate.
Now I have good fast clean bass. It is more directional than the ported bass....if you walk in the room you wonder where the LF is...but as soon as you sit down they sound marvellous. I would go for a 6.5 sealed.
They sound amazing to my ears. The LF is so much better than the B&W DM600 S3 they replaced. The ported BW had great bass for the size but I have realised that the (rear) port was really exciting the room. The bass was everywhere. Good for parties but not very accurate.
Now I have good fast clean bass. It is more directional than the ported bass....if you walk in the room you wonder where the LF is...but as soon as you sit down they sound marvellous. I would go for a 6.5 sealed.
Some great suggestions, this is why I love DIYaudio! I could probably squeeze a bit more volume but I think what I'm going to try to do is make a smaller ported version with the revelators, then perhaps experiment stuffing the port and filling the cabinet to reduce the volume and see if it works better sealed. If that doesn't do the trick then I would be inclined to use the Sartori for a sealed design.
Would anyone be willing to help me sim and calculate a crossover design for a small ported floorstander? I could use the Paul Carmody design as a basis but I'd need to order in the Hiquophon OW1. I do have a Seas 27TDFC tweeter but didn't know if this would mate well with the Scanspeak 15W/8530K00?
Would anyone be willing to help me sim and calculate a crossover design for a small ported floorstander? I could use the Paul Carmody design as a basis but I'd need to order in the Hiquophon OW1. I do have a Seas 27TDFC tweeter but didn't know if this would mate well with the Scanspeak 15W/8530K00?
Can you describe the sound signature or differences?
Last edited: