Small 13m2 room.
If compare some 3way seas prestige, SB acoustic, ScanSpeak discovery
to
2way with expensive price w15 Revelators?
With 3 way we get breathing midrange and big bass driver but its cheap drivers. I compare seas prestige and seas excel. Excel more dynamic, deatail fuller sounding but its with 2way design.
Really hard to choose...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Guys thanks for comments!
now i hawe SEAS 5INCH with CA15rly.
I want some upgrade.
Candidates
Ellam98-mkII
SBAcoustics-3WC
SEAS-3-Way-Classic-mkII
ScanSpeak-3W-Discovery
I want bigger soundstage, better plasmeint in soundstage. I WANT SOME MOREEE!!! If its posible i want dynamic and fiilling the bas driver push the air but not working like subwufer.I know its posseble with W26FX002 and L26RFX/P. What i dont like with 5inc is when i listen to loud its starts smerring the sound and losee placement in soundstage and soundstage is more like in the midle. But for the prise its bargain!!! This speakers not BAD I yust want some more. INFECTED!!! I can't put some 100 liter speakers... i want to do this but its imposible because my neighbors not be proud of me
Before order i thinking to write some mesages to Troels. Interesting what he says and thinking about this.
I hoope my english not so bad
If compare some 3way seas prestige, SB acoustic, ScanSpeak discovery
to
2way with expensive price w15 Revelators?
With 3 way we get breathing midrange and big bass driver but its cheap drivers. I compare seas prestige and seas excel. Excel more dynamic, deatail fuller sounding but its with 2way design.
Really hard to choose...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Guys thanks for comments!
now i hawe SEAS 5INCH with CA15rly.
I want some upgrade.
Candidates
Ellam98-mkII
SBAcoustics-3WC
SEAS-3-Way-Classic-mkII
ScanSpeak-3W-Discovery
I want bigger soundstage, better plasmeint in soundstage. I WANT SOME MOREEE!!! If its posible i want dynamic and fiilling the bas driver push the air but not working like subwufer.I know its posseble with W26FX002 and L26RFX/P. What i dont like with 5inc is when i listen to loud its starts smerring the sound and losee placement in soundstage and soundstage is more like in the midle. But for the prise its bargain!!! This speakers not BAD I yust want some more. INFECTED!!! I can't put some 100 liter speakers... i want to do this but its imposible because my neighbors not be proud of me
Before order i thinking to write some mesages to Troels. Interesting what he says and thinking about this.
I hoope my english not so bad
Last edited:
A good 2 way will always spank a poor 3 way. Simpler crossover, better woofer that goes down deep enough. I'm using 18W Revelators in a much larger space and they have great musical bass.
The smaller the room, the more difficult the bass integration will be. If you want to do a 3 way with 25cm drivers you'll be in more need of bass traps.
In your space, the 15W/8530K-00 in a sealed box would be perfect.
You could even experiment. The Peerless 830991 fits in a similar box and has almost the same bass extention. You could certainly experiment with that for about $35 US.
Also, check out the prices at audiohobby.eu for the Scan Speak.
Best,
Erik
Simpler crossover, better woofer that goes down deep enough. I'm using 18W Revelators in a much larger space and they have great musical bass. The smaller the room, the more difficult the bass integration will be. If you want to do a 3 way with 25cm drivers you'll be in more need of bass traps.
In your space, the 15W/8530K-00 in a sealed box would be perfect.
You could even experiment. The Peerless 830991 fits in a similar box and has almost the same bass extention. You could certainly experiment with that for about $35 US.
Also, check out the prices at audiohobby.eu for the Scan Speak.
Best,
Erik
With regards to the bass just go with a multiple sub setup. They don't have to be anything special just three small self powered 8" driver cubes etc second hand from eBay, would work great and help dramatically with wonky room mode issues.
I would personally go for the three way. This is assuming the two way and three ways are well designed, as there's no point in building a poorly designed loudspeaker.
Expensive drivers can be nice but you are well into the laws of diminishing returns and in some cases the expensive drivers aren't even better than the cheap ones. You'd have to choose the right three way though.
If you are wanting a kit then you may well be better off with a two way as a three way, with the right drivers, might be hard to find. Something using the 6.5" Satori driver from SB would be first on my list.
I would personally go for the three way. This is assuming the two way and three ways are well designed, as there's no point in building a poorly designed loudspeaker.
Expensive drivers can be nice but you are well into the laws of diminishing returns and in some cases the expensive drivers aren't even better than the cheap ones. You'd have to choose the right three way though.
If you are wanting a kit then you may well be better off with a two way as a three way, with the right drivers, might be hard to find. Something using the 6.5" Satori driver from SB would be first on my list.
Hi 5th,
I think subs are the children of the devil. Especially in a small room. Yes, you can get lots of bass from a sub, but ultimately it's poor quality and ragged unless you want to spend some time/money with some real good bass traps.
For this reason I think many are better off with smaller speakers and subs, which will do better bass than they think, than trying to get the lowest -3db speaker. Often you can't raise the sub to be equal to the satellites due to big peaks. You end up with +20 db peaks which define your sub level and most of your sub's output has to stay too low.
Now, kill those peaks by using bass traps or careful EQ and the subwoofer level can come up and you can take advantage of the full frequency range of the sub.
My opinion though.
Best,
Erik
I think subs are the children of the devil.
Especially in a small room. Yes, you can get lots of bass from a sub, but ultimately it's poor quality and ragged unless you want to spend some time/money with some real good bass traps. For this reason I think many are better off with smaller speakers and subs, which will do better bass than they think, than trying to get the lowest -3db speaker. Often you can't raise the sub to be equal to the satellites due to big peaks. You end up with +20 db peaks which define your sub level and most of your sub's output has to stay too low.
Now, kill those peaks by using bass traps or careful EQ and the subwoofer level can come up and you can take advantage of the full frequency range of the sub.
My opinion though.
Best,
Erik
Contrary to popular belief you can actually put as large a pair of loudspeaker into a small room as you want. The size of the speaker (unless ridiculous) does not overload the room in any particular way, you need to shift a certain amount of air to hit a given SPL at a given frequency and how you do this, with a large driver moving a little, or a small driver moving a lot doesn't matter.
The only issue you have with small rooms is that their modal region starts and ends higher up than with larger ones so if your loudspeakers have a lot of extension you have far more risk of exciting them. This is the reason why people advocate small speakers for small rooms, just because small speakers tend to have limited extension and wont give you a 20dB peak at 40Hz or so.
Multiple subs in actual fact are the antidote to awful bass in small rooms. Five bass sources, two being the main loudspeakers and their intrinsic extension, plus three other subs placed about the room in different locations. This excites the rooms modal region from a number of different points. Where one sub would ordinarily cause a peak, another sub would be causing a null etc and where one causes a null, another causes a peak. Extend this principle to three subs in locations chosen to excite the room in different ways + the two mains and you create a much smoother bass response. What's more you don't need large or capable subs for this to work. Usually you go with one main sub, say with 20Hz extension, then simply have two small fillers, with say 40Hz extension used for blending purposes.
The optimum way to do this is to use EQ on each sub and also on your mains if possible. If done correctly you can end up, pretty much, with a ruler flat frequency response (plus any house curve) from 20Hz up to where the subs cut out. If you don't have DSP EQ you can do a reasonable job just with the built in controls on most powered subs.
Bass traps are completely unnecessary in any small room if you go about the multiple sub route correctly. Yeah it can be a little complicated to set up, which is why I get the impression that many people are negative towards this approach, but the best part is that it doesn't have to be overly expensive.
Something like
REL QUAKE Powered Subwoofer | eBay
Or
KEF PSW 2010 SUBWOOFER | eBay
or
KEF HTB2 Powered Subwoofer 0637203200069 | eBay
Would be great as a starting point for three subs to augment a small pair of speakers in a small room.
The only issue you have with small rooms is that their modal region starts and ends higher up than with larger ones so if your loudspeakers have a lot of extension you have far more risk of exciting them. This is the reason why people advocate small speakers for small rooms, just because small speakers tend to have limited extension and wont give you a 20dB peak at 40Hz or so.
Multiple subs in actual fact are the antidote to awful bass in small rooms. Five bass sources, two being the main loudspeakers and their intrinsic extension, plus three other subs placed about the room in different locations. This excites the rooms modal region from a number of different points. Where one sub would ordinarily cause a peak, another sub would be causing a null etc and where one causes a null, another causes a peak. Extend this principle to three subs in locations chosen to excite the room in different ways + the two mains and you create a much smoother bass response. What's more you don't need large or capable subs for this to work. Usually you go with one main sub, say with 20Hz extension, then simply have two small fillers, with say 40Hz extension used for blending purposes.
The optimum way to do this is to use EQ on each sub and also on your mains if possible. If done correctly you can end up, pretty much, with a ruler flat frequency response (plus any house curve) from 20Hz up to where the subs cut out. If you don't have DSP EQ you can do a reasonable job just with the built in controls on most powered subs.
Bass traps are completely unnecessary in any small room if you go about the multiple sub route correctly. Yeah it can be a little complicated to set up, which is why I get the impression that many people are negative towards this approach, but the best part is that it doesn't have to be overly expensive.
Something like
REL QUAKE Powered Subwoofer | eBay
Or
KEF PSW 2010 SUBWOOFER | eBay
or
KEF HTB2 Powered Subwoofer 0637203200069 | eBay
Would be great as a starting point for three subs to augment a small pair of speakers in a small room.
A well designed 3-way can have superior sound. You just need to find a low cost 8" woofer. For a narrow cabinet, you can mount the woofer on the side panel and put the port low on the front baffle for floor gain and easy placement. As Troels demonstrates, you can build 3-way stand-mount or floor standing with the same floor footprint. DIY Loudspeaker Projects Troels Gravesen
SBAcoustics $25 SB16PFC25-8 6" Paper Cone Woofer.
SBAcoustics $53 SB15NRXC30 5" paper cone midbass.
SBAcoustics $52 SB12MNRX25 4" paper midrange
SBAcoustics $20 SB19ST-C000-4 dome tweeter Fs=980Hz
SBAcoustics $33 SB26STCN-C000-4 dome tweeter Fs=960Hz great sound!
SBAcoustics $92 SB23NRXS45-8 is an excellent 8" woofer, but probably not cheap enough for your goals.
There are crossovers on the web for the SB16PFC25 + SB19ST, and popular SB15NRXC30 + SB26STCN + SB23NRXS45
So.... you need to find a low cost 8" woofer in your country with T/S parameters suited for a ported alignment
Fs ~32Hz
Qtc~0.37
FOR MOTIVATION....check out Torels' Classic 3-way designs.
SBAcoustics-3WC
SBAcoustics $25 SB16PFC25-8 6" Paper Cone Woofer.
SBAcoustics $53 SB15NRXC30 5" paper cone midbass.
SBAcoustics $52 SB12MNRX25 4" paper midrange
SBAcoustics $20 SB19ST-C000-4 dome tweeter Fs=980Hz
SBAcoustics $33 SB26STCN-C000-4 dome tweeter Fs=960Hz great sound!
SBAcoustics $92 SB23NRXS45-8 is an excellent 8" woofer, but probably not cheap enough for your goals.
There are crossovers on the web for the SB16PFC25 + SB19ST, and popular SB15NRXC30 + SB26STCN + SB23NRXS45
So.... you need to find a low cost 8" woofer in your country with T/S parameters suited for a ported alignment
Fs ~32Hz
Qtc~0.37
FOR MOTIVATION....check out Torels' Classic 3-way designs.
SBAcoustics-3WC
5th kind of proved my point. I said subs were the children of the devil. Yes, of course having multiple subs has a higher chance of exciting the room modes more evenly than a single one. Now, where in this small room are you going to place your 5 15" subs?
That's my point about the subwoofer's either sounding crappy or taking over your room. I personally prefer to put my speakers where I want to, not where the subwoofer dictates it. I personally find using bass traps an easier burden than eq's or multiple subs.
Bass traps not only help smoothe out the lower response but keep the bass from lingering several notes after the playing has stopped across the frequency bandwidth something most home rooms need. But let me not argue. I encourage anyone who is curious to measure the frequency response as well as decay with REW or whatever tools they have and then decide for themselves hot to approach their environment.
LS, I like your suggestion. Whenever I see "3-way" i think of 12" woofers. But he did say his choice was between a good 2 way and mediocre 3way. The SB Acoustics and 8" woofers are probably a good idea.
Best,
Erik
I said subs were the children of the devil. Yes, of course having multiple subs has a higher chance of exciting the room modes more evenly than a single one. Now, where in this small room are you going to place your 5 15" subs? That's my point about the subwoofer's either sounding crappy or taking over your room. I personally prefer to put my speakers where I want to, not where the subwoofer dictates it. I personally find using bass traps an easier burden than eq's or multiple subs.
Bass traps not only help smoothe out the lower response but keep the bass from lingering several notes after the playing has stopped across the frequency bandwidth something most home rooms need. But let me not argue. I encourage anyone who is curious to measure the frequency response as well as decay with REW or whatever tools they have and then decide for themselves hot to approach their environment.
LS, I like your suggestion. Whenever I see "3-way" i think of 12" woofers. But he did say his choice was between a good 2 way and mediocre 3way. The SB Acoustics and 8" woofers are probably a good idea.
Best,
Erik
5th kind of proved my point.
That's my point about the subwoofer's either sounding crappy or taking over your room. I personally prefer to put my speakers where I want to, not where the subwoofer dictates it. I personally find using bass traps an easier burden than eq's or multiple subs.
Bass traps not only help smoothe out the lower response but keep the bass from lingering several notes after the playing has stopped across the frequency bandwidth something most home rooms need. But let me not argue. I encourage anyone who is curious to measure the frequency response as well as decay with REW or whatever tools they have and then decide for themselves hot to approach their environment.
LS, I like your suggestion. Whenever I see "3-way" i think of 12" woofers. But he did say his choice was between a good 2 way and mediocre 3way. The SB Acoustics and 8" woofers are probably a good idea.
Best,
Erik
I disagree with everything you say except for bass traps, for that I could kiss you. They are such underated little furry critters and can solve many problems with dud rooms. You can't fix a bad room with clever speaker design, you can only make it tolerable.
However I have a multi sub setup at the moment and it does work well I must say, only that it helps with the problems from 20hz to 800 hz but nothing above that. I'll be using room treatment for that.
But to get back on topic I much prefer 3 way to 2 way and I have had some fancy 2 ways including the DIY heros . They sound good but don't beat the 3 way
A 6" woofer can't make real bass. And a 1" dome tweeter shouldn't have to play midrange. 3 way for the win.
That sounds like a sweet setup!
I don't mean to say no to subs at all. I just think that doing bass right is difficult and for some one who isnt sure if they wanted a 2 or 3 way, it concerned me.
I have 2 soffit traps from GIK acoustics and a 15" sub from Hsu and no place for a second one. My 6.5" are flat to 40 Hz and have usable to 25 Hz in room. Now, can I play Metallica at live concert levels? Hell no.
But I never want to. The sub is completely relegated to movies. If you want high SPL's there's just no substitute for cone surface area, that's undeniable physics.
If you want your subs to sound good though, that's more difficult than placing a pair of 2 or 3 ways, but it also has good payoffs. That is, there are hidden costs which subs bring with them, and most who go that route, maybe not on this forum, end up cutting corners and ending up with something far worse than a 2 or 3 way loudspeaker from a kit.So, let me rephrase. Subwoofers are the devil's succubi. Very sexy, but make sure you can pay the toll.
Best,
Erik
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They are negative because they don't know how to do it.
Who's going to lead them out of their misery? Erik's point
of view dosn't surprise me, having in mind what he is expecting
of expensive nanofarads bypassed to a modern high quality cap.
Your comments are highly informative and benevolent, yet it appears
to be not enough for some. That's life, audiophile life.
Guys thanks for comments!
now i hawe SEAS 5INCH with CA15rly.
I want some upgrade.
Candidates
Ellam98-mkII
SBAcoustics-3WC
SEAS-3-Way-Classic-mkII
ScanSpeak-3W-Discovery
I want bigger soundstage, better plasmeint in soundstage. I WANT SOME MOREEE!!! If its posible i want dynamic and fiilling the bas driver push the air but not working like subwufer.I know its posseble with W26FX002 and L26RFX/P. What i dont like with 5inc is when i listen to loud its starts smerring the sound and losee placement in soundstage and soundstage is more like in the midle. But for the prise its bargain!!! This speakers not BAD I yust want some more. INFECTED!!! I can't put some 100 liter speakers... i want to do this but its imposible because my neighbors not be proud of me
Before order i thinking to write some mesages to Troels. Interesting what he says and thinking about this.
I hoope my english not so bad
now i hawe SEAS 5INCH with CA15rly.
I want some upgrade.
Candidates
Ellam98-mkII
SBAcoustics-3WC
SEAS-3-Way-Classic-mkII
ScanSpeak-3W-Discovery
I want bigger soundstage, better plasmeint in soundstage. I WANT SOME MOREEE!!!
If its posible i want dynamic and fiilling the bas driver push the air but not working like subwufer.I know its posseble with W26FX002 and L26RFX/P. What i dont like with 5inc is when i listen to loud its starts smerring the sound and losee placement in soundstage and soundstage is more like in the midle. But for the prise its bargain!!! This speakers not BAD I yust want some more. INFECTED!!! I can't put some 100 liter speakers... i want to do this but its imposible because my neighbors not be proud of me Before order i thinking to write some mesages to Troels. Interesting what he says and thinking about this.
I hoope my english not so bad
Last edited:
They are negative because they don't know how to do it.
Who's going to lead them out of their misery? Erik's point
of view dosn't surprise me, having in mind what he is expecting
of expensive nanofarads bypassed to a modern high quality cap.
Your comments are highly informative and benevolent, yet it appears
to be not enough for some. That's life, audiophile life.
Heh, my nanofarads were a total bust.
I think subs are great when set up right. I really do. Its just in giving advice I was trying to stay within the apparent budget and willingness of the person asking advice.
The average speaker or speaker kit is designed to work well in a room that most buyers are familiar with. Plop them down, toe them in according to directions and done. Depending on the designer they are meant to be out a couple of feet from a wall or up against it. Easy peasy. Subs, as soon as we talk about good subs we need to talk EQ at least, bass traps and more, and/or careful placement and measuring or buying two to get more even coverage. They are the "princesses" of speakers.
Bass traps are wonderful things that are in no way like trying out boutique parts. Any studio or respectable home theater installer would have them on the short list of acoustic components to use. When you get + and - 20db resonant peaks it's impossible to balance the bass right. I've had just that in a 15X12' room. EQ's were an absolute minimum. I've also seen people get confused. They add a subwoofer to an electrostatic and think the sub is flabby, tubby and slow. No such thing. They just didn't integrate it properly. Once that's taken care of, it the complains that matching electro-magnetic and electrostatic drivers go away. They can also make a smaller speaker sound larger thanks to making the overall bass response better. A crappy room you can add 150" subwoofers and the bass will always be crap. Loud, but crap.
In my current room, really more like the corner of an L shaped apartment, adding bass traps let me stop using a subwoofer for music. It really improved the bass and bass quality of the 6.5" ported speakers I'm using. I may go back and play though, I have that horn dynamic range envy and want to see if I can bring the sub into the mix, so I'm not selling this as THE solution, but saying that bass traps are really enablers of good bass. Of course your room will vary and in doubt talk to a consultant or acoustician. I like the guys at GIK Acoustics.
Best,
Erik
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you don't tell us much about your situation. are you thinking of designing them? do you have experience? are you looking for a kit? do you have hi end gear or a box store ht receiver.
i don't think generalizing about two ways or three ways is going to be all that productive. There are reasons to do a three way that are part of a design process. There are designs on the web of both type that people rave about.
I suspect a two way is what you want but the real answer is in the design skills. Check out Jeff Bagbys projects if you haven't already.
i don't think generalizing about two ways or three ways is going to be all that productive. There are reasons to do a three way that are part of a design process. There are designs on the web of both type that people rave about.
I suspect a two way is what you want but the real answer is in the design skills. Check out Jeff Bagbys projects if you haven't already.
Room treatment is completely unnecessary with a correctly implemented hifi system. This requires controlled directivity in your main loudspeakers, as much as possible and multiple subs.
Not to sound too much like a Geddes Fan boy, but I learnt the hard way (try all sorts of different 'in' things in the past) that all you need are waveguides and sub woofers and the best part is it all makes perfect sense.
Room treatments are a pain. Why? They cost money. They intrude upon the décor that is already present, they take up space and they deaden the room.
Within reasonable limits you want your listening room to be fairly lively and this requires reflections. Put in diffusers on the walls etc to break up the early reflections that would otherwise smear your soundstage (why people want room treatment to start with usually) and you end up deadening the room. This isn't a good thing because its the rooms reflections and reverberation that are directly responsible for creating the spaciousness and level of ambiance that loudspeaker deliver over headphones. The same is true for bass traps which have limited effectiveness to start with.
If you use a loudspeaker with a waveguide the controlled directivity that this provides minimises the effect of the image-smearing early reflections by stopping the problem at the source. Ie the constant directivity region of the waveguide throws less sound out at the side walls in the first place and redirects it where you actually want it - where you are sitting - and throws the sound out over the listening area far more evenly. With the waveguide system the later reflections, created by the rooms overall reverberation time, are still present, as no diffusers were needed on the side walls, so you don't end up sacrificing spaciousness for image clarity and precision.
The multiple sub approach doesn't need to be complicated, room dominating or expensive.
Did you even read what I wrote or looked at the links I provided? Five bass sources. Two are the main loudspeakers. Three are sub woofers. The subs I provided links to were compact, one of them a slimline version and one using an 8" driver in a small cube loudspeaker. There are plenty of these on the market, no one wants 15" subs dominating the room, you do not need them - that is half of the point of the multiple sub approach.
If you want 20Hz extension then go for it. But if you do want this typically you only need one single sub woofer that is capable of decent output down that low. Most living rooms, especially small ones, stop being modal around ~40Hz. You do not need any multiple sub shenanigans below where the room ceases to be modal hence you only need one bass source at 20Hz.
The point of the other two subs is to act as filler subs in combination with the main loudspeakers (hopefully these have ~40Hz extension too so go down as far as room is modal). The filler subs only need ~40Hz extension. They can be small, unobtrusive and inexpensive.
If they sound crappy you are doing it wrong, if they are taking over the room due to their shear size then get smaller subs. Tangband make some pretty decent 6.5" sub drivers. These would be ideal for a small room multiple sub setup as they will give you the extension required to work on the rooms modal area.
Who said anything about doing this? You put your mains where you want your mains, period. There isn't any faffing about with stupid locations, breaking out the set squares and laser guides.
You put your mains where you want your mains, preferably positioned for the best stereophonic reproduction in your listening position. You then place the three subs in three totally random and hopefully entirely different positions within the room. Say put one behind the loudspeakers anywhere along the wall behind them (preferably the one with 20Hz extension if you have it). Put another sub anywhere along a side wall and then final one behind you somewhere.
Note the anywheres and the somewheres? Location isn't overly important providing they are spread out.
It's also less of a burden to design a pair of loudspeakers using textbook formulas rather than measuring them and designing them with suitable CAD software. Would you do that too?
I am tempted to say you don't know how to do the multiple sub thing correctly and hence shun what you don't understand. A bass trap is simple. Buy it and shove it in a corner, perhaps move it around a little.
On the note of subs taking over the room physically though. I found it a doddle finding somewhere to inconspicuously place my three 30cm cube subs. I cannot say the same for bass traps. In fact I don't even know where I would put them without having to completely rearrange the room and pull things out of corners etc and off of walls.
Not to sound too much like a Geddes Fan boy, but I learnt the hard way (try all sorts of different 'in' things in the past) that all you need are waveguides and sub woofers and the best part is it all makes perfect sense.
Room treatments are a pain. Why? They cost money. They intrude upon the décor that is already present, they take up space and they deaden the room.
Within reasonable limits you want your listening room to be fairly lively and this requires reflections. Put in diffusers on the walls etc to break up the early reflections that would otherwise smear your soundstage (why people want room treatment to start with usually) and you end up deadening the room. This isn't a good thing because its the rooms reflections and reverberation that are directly responsible for creating the spaciousness and level of ambiance that loudspeaker deliver over headphones. The same is true for bass traps which have limited effectiveness to start with.
If you use a loudspeaker with a waveguide the controlled directivity that this provides minimises the effect of the image-smearing early reflections by stopping the problem at the source. Ie the constant directivity region of the waveguide throws less sound out at the side walls in the first place and redirects it where you actually want it - where you are sitting - and throws the sound out over the listening area far more evenly. With the waveguide system the later reflections, created by the rooms overall reverberation time, are still present, as no diffusers were needed on the side walls, so you don't end up sacrificing spaciousness for image clarity and precision.
The multiple sub approach doesn't need to be complicated, room dominating or expensive.
Did you even read what I wrote or looked at the links I provided? Five bass sources. Two are the main loudspeakers. Three are sub woofers. The subs I provided links to were compact, one of them a slimline version and one using an 8" driver in a small cube loudspeaker. There are plenty of these on the market, no one wants 15" subs dominating the room, you do not need them - that is half of the point of the multiple sub approach.
If you want 20Hz extension then go for it. But if you do want this typically you only need one single sub woofer that is capable of decent output down that low. Most living rooms, especially small ones, stop being modal around ~40Hz. You do not need any multiple sub shenanigans below where the room ceases to be modal hence you only need one bass source at 20Hz.
The point of the other two subs is to act as filler subs in combination with the main loudspeakers (hopefully these have ~40Hz extension too so go down as far as room is modal). The filler subs only need ~40Hz extension. They can be small, unobtrusive and inexpensive.
If they sound crappy you are doing it wrong, if they are taking over the room due to their shear size then get smaller subs. Tangband make some pretty decent 6.5" sub drivers. These would be ideal for a small room multiple sub setup as they will give you the extension required to work on the rooms modal area.
Who said anything about doing this? You put your mains where you want your mains, period. There isn't any faffing about with stupid locations, breaking out the set squares and laser guides.
You put your mains where you want your mains, preferably positioned for the best stereophonic reproduction in your listening position. You then place the three subs in three totally random and hopefully entirely different positions within the room. Say put one behind the loudspeakers anywhere along the wall behind them (preferably the one with 20Hz extension if you have it). Put another sub anywhere along a side wall and then final one behind you somewhere.
Note the anywheres and the somewheres? Location isn't overly important providing they are spread out.
It's also less of a burden to design a pair of loudspeakers using textbook formulas rather than measuring them and designing them with suitable CAD software. Would you do that too?
I am tempted to say you don't know how to do the multiple sub thing correctly and hence shun what you don't understand. A bass trap is simple. Buy it and shove it in a corner, perhaps move it around a little.
On the note of subs taking over the room physically though. I found it a doddle finding somewhere to inconspicuously place my three 30cm cube subs. I cannot say the same for bass traps. In fact I don't even know where I would put them without having to completely rearrange the room and pull things out of corners etc and off of walls.
There you go again stating an opinion as fact
Too late
Only if you don't know how to implement them properly
You are all mixed up i'm afraid. Diffusers enliven a room by diffusing sound to create the illusion of a larger volume with a greater sense of space. They do the opposite of "deadening" a room. Go and read through Bill Waslo's thread on his DIY diffusors and the difference they made to his room. He uses them with constant directivity synergy horns. Or maybe he didn't have a "correctly implemented sound system"?
What effectiveness do multi subs have over the 100hz to 400hz range?
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