Charlize has lots of Dynamyc range
"I'm concerned about you guys wanting more dynamics from the charlize"
Hi Hara, as Barfind said, Charlize has lots of Dynamyc range.
I have esl 57's and Charlize plays them with plenty of authority.
I've also been startled by some crezendos in some of my orchestral recording.
I was interested in more power as I have a friend that stacks Quads 57's - he sometimes stacks three.
Can you imagine that?
Bachiano
"I'm concerned about you guys wanting more dynamics from the charlize"
Hi Hara, as Barfind said, Charlize has lots of Dynamyc range.
I have esl 57's and Charlize plays them with plenty of authority.
I've also been startled by some crezendos in some of my orchestral recording.
I was interested in more power as I have a friend that stacks Quads 57's - he sometimes stacks three.
Can you imagine that?
Bachiano
Hello Bachiano... excuse my ignorance... I am very new to all this...
"I was interested in more power as I have a friend that stacks Quads 57's - he sometimes stacks three.
Can you imagine that?"
... when you say stacking you mean driving in series or in paralel?
Thanks, Juan
"I was interested in more power as I have a friend that stacks Quads 57's - he sometimes stacks three.
Can you imagine that?"
... when you say stacking you mean driving in series or in paralel?
Thanks, Juan
he does it in parallel
and makes them switchable so you can run one, two or three pairs.
I've heard them. 😀 😀 😀
and makes them switchable so you can run one, two or three pairs.
I've heard them. 😀 😀 😀
Ok now I'm really excited... I think I'll be working till its done all through my winter vacation. I get 3 weeks. I'll post my project with pics and everything. Thanks for your guy's input.
barfind said:
I'm going to start sounding like a broken record.
Aircore bad, toroid good, Aircore bad, toroid good, Aircore bad, toroid good, 2 legs bad, 4 legs good...
The guys are gonna toss me off the forum.
See this thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66528&highlight=aircore
If the link doesn't work, search this forum for a topic with "aircore" in the title.
panomaniac said:
I'm going to start sounding like a broken record.
Aircore bad, toroid good, Aircore bad, toroid good, Aircore bad, toroid good, 2 legs bad, 4 legs good...
The guys are gonna toss me off the forum.
See this thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66528&highlight=aircore
If the link doesn't work, search this forum for a topic with "aircore" in the title.
Here is a paste from that thread
"How they sound can be a lot harder to tell than just measuring them, as it is mostly subjective. A good 3 way blind test is in order."
"What I hear in my first tests is that the aircore and toroids sound "smoother" than the stock coils, but that is mostly at high power. I think that others have found the same thing. The difference is subtle, but real. I don't know why there is a difference, it can't be that we are hearing those ultrasonic artifacts, can it?"
Maybe the difference is not BAD V GOOD, but good V better. It may be system dependent, or something like that. I know mine sounds very good, incredibily smooth. But we all value other points of veiw, as this drives R&D, so keep up the good work Micheal.
Nigel
So according to panomaniac's thread, regarding the charlize, is it better to get the aircores or is he saying to look for a toroid solution? Either way they're both better than stock?
Hey Nigel,
It's not that the aircore inductors sound bad, they don't. In fact they sound quite good. The point here is that aircore inductors are bad engineering in this application. You may say "Engineering be damned, I just want good sound."
But good engineering in this case can lead to better sound, and more reliable results. The trouble with the aircore inductors is that the radiate a lot of RF. If, and I do mean if, you don't get any of that RF into your signal, then no worries. But it is too easy to pick up the RF off those aircore "antennae." And that sounds really bad. Even a little of that, you would not want.
Want an analogy?
You have a nice new house and winter is coming on. How you gonna keep warm? You could place a big slab of stone right in the middle of the living room floor and build a fire on it. Will it keep you warm? Sure it will! Will it look pretty? You bet! So it works - as long as you don't mind all the smoke. And as long as you keep the kids, pets, furniture, rugs, etc away.
Does it work well? Yes. Is it a good idea? No.
A nice fireplace with a screen and good drafting chimney would be a much better choice, and would keep you just as warm.
Hope that sheds some warmth on the topic. We need to start a filter thread, there is certainly a lot of improvement to be found there. We will be breaking new ground in this class-D thing.
It's not that the aircore inductors sound bad, they don't. In fact they sound quite good. The point here is that aircore inductors are bad engineering in this application. You may say "Engineering be damned, I just want good sound."
But good engineering in this case can lead to better sound, and more reliable results. The trouble with the aircore inductors is that the radiate a lot of RF. If, and I do mean if, you don't get any of that RF into your signal, then no worries. But it is too easy to pick up the RF off those aircore "antennae." And that sounds really bad. Even a little of that, you would not want.
Want an analogy?
You have a nice new house and winter is coming on. How you gonna keep warm? You could place a big slab of stone right in the middle of the living room floor and build a fire on it. Will it keep you warm? Sure it will! Will it look pretty? You bet! So it works - as long as you don't mind all the smoke. And as long as you keep the kids, pets, furniture, rugs, etc away.
Does it work well? Yes. Is it a good idea? No.
A nice fireplace with a screen and good drafting chimney would be a much better choice, and would keep you just as warm.
Hope that sheds some warmth on the topic. We need to start a filter thread, there is certainly a lot of improvement to be found there. We will be breaking new ground in this class-D thing.
Good work Micheal, again. I suppose its a bit like trannies and chokes loaded into a tube amp case. There is an effect from all that iron raddiating electro magnetic forces all over the place (my set had 2 power trannies, 2 output trannies, and 5 chokes), but the benefit outways the down sides of the practice.
How would you implement this technology into charlize. Have you got one to do some work on? maybe a mod you could consider for owners of charlize. What do you think Micheal?
Nigel
How would you implement this technology into charlize. Have you got one to do some work on? maybe a mod you could consider for owners of charlize. What do you think Micheal?
Nigel
barfind said:
Alas I doubt I'll ever have the time to "fool around" with lovely Ms. Charlize. But I am looking into have toroids produced. Winding by hand is OK for a few, but not for 100 or more...
If so, it should be an easy plug in for the Charlize.
At the moment I have to finish an AMP6, review the new Sonic Impact amp, and convince the Italians to let me sell the Fenice board in kit form. And the build more Octopus amps. A rather full plate.
hi panomaniac
i won't worry much about air core vs toroid core. you hv valid points above but i'll be more concerned with using thru hole components instead of surface mount components.
you see, during the testing stage, we found that the same amp built with thru hole components has a much higher noise floor compared to one built with air core inductors. this is one of the main reasons why we went for surface mount components, wherever possible. thru-hole is definitely easier to tweak and isn't that hard on our eyes but hey! good engineering (and the results) call for surface mount components and we went for it.
we also tried and can't hear much noise going between air core and ferrite core. and we were insane enough to use 100db speakers!
how about that? 🙂
i'll say, don't worry too much about these stuffs. if it sounds good, that's important. on an unrelated note, output from non-oversampling dacs are really ugly! but the sound beautiful.
since looking at scope waveforms have no relation to my enjoying my music, i'ill just listen. 🙂
donjuan
i won't worry much about air core vs toroid core. you hv valid points above but i'll be more concerned with using thru hole components instead of surface mount components.
you see, during the testing stage, we found that the same amp built with thru hole components has a much higher noise floor compared to one built with air core inductors. this is one of the main reasons why we went for surface mount components, wherever possible. thru-hole is definitely easier to tweak and isn't that hard on our eyes but hey! good engineering (and the results) call for surface mount components and we went for it.
we also tried and can't hear much noise going between air core and ferrite core. and we were insane enough to use 100db speakers!
how about that? 🙂
i'll say, don't worry too much about these stuffs. if it sounds good, that's important. on an unrelated note, output from non-oversampling dacs are really ugly! but the sound beautiful.
since looking at scope waveforms have no relation to my enjoying my music, i'ill just listen. 🙂
donjuan
Donjuan,
Well said!
Reminded me of people who said tube amp will sound bad just because THD fugure from tube amp measured bad.
Well said!
Reminded me of people who said tube amp will sound bad just because THD fugure from tube amp measured bad.
vt4c said:Reminded me of people who said tube amp will sound bad just because THD fugure from tube amp measured bad.
Panomaniac makes a really valid point based on a solid engineering concern. I don't think we should be dismissive.
As it is, the Charlize sounds very good with the aircore inductors. Whether the aircores are picking up RFI or not in this application has yet to be measured, AFAIK. Regardless, they deliver good sound.
Yeo has reported that the aircores sound different than the regular inductors - preferable in many ways. This will be good enough for some folks, especially if there are no negative effects of any RFI they may be picking up.
But Panomaniac has a valid point, and working on a solid principle like that can explain unexpected problems in the current application or lead to even better sounding devices in the future.
So for those of us who aren't engineers, let's just enjoy the Charlize sound!
Best,
KT
I read somewhere,
that in the fifties, audio engineers added some type of distortion to movie tracks to make them sound better in theaters.
that in the fifties, audio engineers added some type of distortion to movie tracks to make them sound better in theaters.
Re: I read somewhere,
Yes, I've read that too. And the theories that disc surface noise makes records sound "better." Hmmm...
Go ahead and channel some of that Tripath RF noise back into your input. You won't like it! 😉
In no way am I saying that the Charlize is a bad amp or poorly designed. She gets too many glowing "love story" reviews. Yeo has undoubtedly done a great job on this amp. All I want to do is warn my fellow DIYers that that using aircore is risky. It's easy to get it wrong. The toroids are much easier to get right and sound just as good.
I do agree 100% on the SMD vs. Thru hole. These amps need a tight layout.
As far as the oscilloscope goes, it is a great tool, along with others, for finding what went wrong. But it doesn't play music, so I try to use it wisely. 😀
bachiano said:
Yes, I've read that too. And the theories that disc surface noise makes records sound "better." Hmmm...
Go ahead and channel some of that Tripath RF noise back into your input. You won't like it! 😉
In no way am I saying that the Charlize is a bad amp or poorly designed. She gets too many glowing "love story" reviews. Yeo has undoubtedly done a great job on this amp. All I want to do is warn my fellow DIYers that that using aircore is risky. It's easy to get it wrong. The toroids are much easier to get right and sound just as good.
I do agree 100% on the SMD vs. Thru hole. These amps need a tight layout.
As far as the oscilloscope goes, it is a great tool, along with others, for finding what went wrong. But it doesn't play music, so I try to use it wisely. 😀
Well, What we see here is a balanced discussion of the pros and cons of a component. This did not start as a criticism of "charlize", and I am glad it didn't turn into that. Rather Micheal gave us another view of air coils V toriods, and this only goes well for the future of all concerned. We need to push the boundries to bring out the best in products.
I think Yeo have produced an amazing amp, and I am sure many will love the sound as I do, which, in the end is what really matters. Thanks.
Nigel
I think Yeo have produced an amazing amp, and I am sure many will love the sound as I do, which, in the end is what really matters. Thanks.
Nigel