Re: Re: Re: More questions
It makes sense that because of the short length of the wires, there's not going to be much direct effect. What I'm wondering about is if there are effects between wires due to electric noise between them, and also the board - it's all quite close and tangled there.
Am I not simply adding a short length of e.g. crappy, noisy interconnects before my actual interconnects? Right on top of the board, for that matter...
Also, I don't think fitting the board is a problem. I can use a short stub of thin wire and then connect whatever is my prefered wire to that.
* I never understood why the insulation should matter, but I don't think I ever tried teflon insulation. Does it really make a difference? Any idea why?
barfind said:
It makes sense that because of the short length of the wires, there's not going to be much direct effect. What I'm wondering about is if there are effects between wires due to electric noise between them, and also the board - it's all quite close and tangled there.
Am I not simply adding a short length of e.g. crappy, noisy interconnects before my actual interconnects? Right on top of the board, for that matter...
Also, I don't think fitting the board is a problem. I can use a short stub of thin wire and then connect whatever is my prefered wire to that.
* I never understood why the insulation should matter, but I don't think I ever tried teflon insulation. Does it really make a difference? Any idea why?
Re: Re: Re: Re: More questions
My personnal experience (Charlize and Autocostruire kits) showed me that there is no side effect...at least I can hear any noise.
Just for fun, I compared regular CAT5 wire and Teflon insulated CAT5 as IC and the difference was important. The non Teflon insulated wire was sounding harsh compare to the other. You can buy some Teflon silver plated wire at a good price from ApexJr :
http://www.apexjr.com/wire.html#Teflon
You have to mention that you want Solid silver plated copper Teflon wire (22 AWG make the job).
By the way, the 10 AWG silver plated copper make very good speakers wire. I use it for the bass in my 3 ways and like it a lot. I used it with some 2 ways and the sound was also very good. It can be compared to expensive wire. No need to spend big $ on speakers cable !
Regards,
vern said:
My personnal experience (Charlize and Autocostruire kits) showed me that there is no side effect...at least I can hear any noise.
vern said:
Just for fun, I compared regular CAT5 wire and Teflon insulated CAT5 as IC and the difference was important. The non Teflon insulated wire was sounding harsh compare to the other. You can buy some Teflon silver plated wire at a good price from ApexJr :
http://www.apexjr.com/wire.html#Teflon
You have to mention that you want Solid silver plated copper Teflon wire (22 AWG make the job).
By the way, the 10 AWG silver plated copper make very good speakers wire. I use it for the bass in my 3 ways and like it a lot. I used it with some 2 ways and the sound was also very good. It can be compared to expensive wire. No need to spend big $ on speakers cable !
Regards,
What Nigel, barfind, has here is quite amazing and it's a combination of the Sony X7, B200's in an OB, Charlize and 15" woofers in OB powered by some serious SS grunt. Charlize is only part of it but is certainly the icing on the cake. IMO, anything else in there wouldn't give the same detail or soundstage. The LM3875 couldn't bring out the best in the system but works admirably with more moderate equipment.
Nigel and myself have different tastes in how music should be presented, which is quite normal, but the sound by-passed my idiosyncrancies and tastes and was just enjoyable. Sure, I might prefer a bit more of this or a bit less of that, but that all went out the window with it's overall presentation. Has to be one of the best I've ever heard.
The session did highlight the need for good system matching to get the best from Charlize and Nigel's system is made for it. Mine on the other hand would not match but I'm going to get one for another use.... can't wait. Hey Nigel.... that order gone in yet
Nigel and myself have different tastes in how music should be presented, which is quite normal, but the sound by-passed my idiosyncrancies and tastes and was just enjoyable. Sure, I might prefer a bit more of this or a bit less of that, but that all went out the window with it's overall presentation. Has to be one of the best I've ever heard.
The session did highlight the need for good system matching to get the best from Charlize and Nigel's system is made for it. Mine on the other hand would not match but I'm going to get one for another use.... can't wait. Hey Nigel.... that order gone in yet
Power Supply try-before-you-buy
Hi Group from a new follower of this thread,
I have just read all 223 posts!!! Very interesting and I am very impressed with all you guys. May I throw my pennyworth in the pot?
I have an AMP3 [with polyprop. input caps] that is similar to Charlize. We share a common need for the best power supply. I built the AMP3 after modding and loving a Sonic Impact. A recurring dilemma seems to be...what power supply?... transformed mains power,... SMPS.... or battery...?.
Here is my low cost solution to "try before you buy".
1/Get a 12 to 13.5v. wall-wart from your printer/scanner/cordless phone/rechargeable drill/computer subwoofer/rechargeable dildo etc.
2/Pull out the ATX p/s from your computer...[on the motherboard socket, short green to any-black, switch on and pull 12v from yellow and any-black].
3/Pull out your car battery.
Watch your polarity, obviously.
After adding and removing capacitance [17,00mf in my case] to all sources, I am firmly with Barfind in my findings.
Clear Winner for me is the car battery connected straight to the Tripath...no capacitance. The remainder were similar enough to all come last. [mind you, I have an edgey system, that takes no prisoners... I feel stidency in my scrotum!!!]
It gave a more relaxed and more dymanic presentation. More nuance. More THERE.
As I have a historic car that is run 26 times a year, I shall stick with the car battery.
Wonderful sound!
Phil.
For the record...
Klipsch La Scalas[104dB/watt] Sony top-of-range portable CD with digital volume... All battery...NO MAINS HASH! Perfect black silence! No more hearing when the street switches on '60 Minutes'!
13.64v from my HP printer wart
12.97v from my car battery
12.0v from my computer ATX power supply.
Hope this adds something to this GREAT forum. Wot a hobby! Fab.
Like lots of you, I have $k's under the stairs! but regret nothing. Done Martin Logans/549 EAR/Vimak CD. all that..this high efficiency route is the best fun! I have O/B 8" Richard Allens ready to go.
Hi Group from a new follower of this thread,
I have just read all 223 posts!!! Very interesting and I am very impressed with all you guys. May I throw my pennyworth in the pot?
I have an AMP3 [with polyprop. input caps] that is similar to Charlize. We share a common need for the best power supply. I built the AMP3 after modding and loving a Sonic Impact. A recurring dilemma seems to be...what power supply?... transformed mains power,... SMPS.... or battery...?.
Here is my low cost solution to "try before you buy".
1/Get a 12 to 13.5v. wall-wart from your printer/scanner/cordless phone/rechargeable drill/computer subwoofer/rechargeable dildo etc.
2/Pull out the ATX p/s from your computer...[on the motherboard socket, short green to any-black, switch on and pull 12v from yellow and any-black].
3/Pull out your car battery.
Watch your polarity, obviously.
After adding and removing capacitance [17,00mf in my case] to all sources, I am firmly with Barfind in my findings.
Clear Winner for me is the car battery connected straight to the Tripath...no capacitance. The remainder were similar enough to all come last. [mind you, I have an edgey system, that takes no prisoners... I feel stidency in my scrotum!!!]
It gave a more relaxed and more dymanic presentation. More nuance. More THERE.
As I have a historic car that is run 26 times a year, I shall stick with the car battery.
Wonderful sound!
Phil.
For the record...
Klipsch La Scalas[104dB/watt] Sony top-of-range portable CD with digital volume... All battery...NO MAINS HASH! Perfect black silence! No more hearing when the street switches on '60 Minutes'!
13.64v from my HP printer wart
12.97v from my car battery
12.0v from my computer ATX power supply.
Hope this adds something to this GREAT forum. Wot a hobby! Fab.
Like lots of you, I have $k's under the stairs! but regret nothing. Done Martin Logans/549 EAR/Vimak CD. all that..this high efficiency route is the best fun! I have O/B 8" Richard Allens ready to go.
I suspect that amps is at least as significant as volts w.r.t. Class D psu.
Got a replacement Charlize, tried it with regulated 13.4V 3A, and 12v smps wall warts. Best is 60 watt smps with enough internal capacitance to keep it's led lit for > 1 min after disconnection. 5 amp wall wart is much more dynamic than 2 amp one, even at low levels (around 85 db from my Lowthers).
Intend to get a bench supply and see effect of dropping voltage on currants, and current limiting on dynamics.
Thing about non-smps wall warts is they tend to be too low power (500ma - 1500ma range).
Charlize has had around 40 hours burn, and is not as noise-free as Dr Amp (C has slight hiss, just perceptable with ear pressed against speaker, Dr A dead silent). But C is certainly more extended at bottom end.
Putting Dr A into use will free up 13.4 7A supply for further play.
Unfortunately, due to internal regulation Dr A don't work with 12v supply.
Got a replacement Charlize, tried it with regulated 13.4V 3A, and 12v smps wall warts. Best is 60 watt smps with enough internal capacitance to keep it's led lit for > 1 min after disconnection. 5 amp wall wart is much more dynamic than 2 amp one, even at low levels (around 85 db from my Lowthers).
Intend to get a bench supply and see effect of dropping voltage on currants, and current limiting on dynamics.
Thing about non-smps wall warts is they tend to be too low power (500ma - 1500ma range).
Charlize has had around 40 hours burn, and is not as noise-free as Dr Amp (C has slight hiss, just perceptable with ear pressed against speaker, Dr A dead silent). But C is certainly more extended at bottom end.
Putting Dr A into use will free up 13.4 7A supply for further play.
Unfortunately, due to internal regulation Dr A don't work with 12v supply.
The T-Amp faq is coming along. Needs a lot of editing but it is coming along.
One thing I want to add is a speaker design section specifically for Charlize that contains a simple list of drivers/enclosures that work well with Charlize, (ie matches the detail of Charlize, masks weaknesses etc) and maybe approximate building costs. Part of this is cause I need more opinions with varying budget ranges and without a doubt other people will find this beneficial.
I'm interested in (eventually) bringing out the detail and soundstage to a level unheard of utilizing the input from all you guys.
Btw, I'm seriously envious of Nigel's B200 OB (and you other lucky people)... with the money to buy a pair of those drivers, I could build around 10 pairs of the youyoung's W3-871s TQWT speakers. Although my next proj is beginning to be more expensive, the more pricy FE167 drivers in an MLTL (not folded, I used to mix up MLTL with TQWT, now I know the difference)
One thing I want to add is a speaker design section specifically for Charlize that contains a simple list of drivers/enclosures that work well with Charlize, (ie matches the detail of Charlize, masks weaknesses etc) and maybe approximate building costs. Part of this is cause I need more opinions with varying budget ranges and without a doubt other people will find this beneficial.
I'm interested in (eventually) bringing out the detail and soundstage to a level unheard of utilizing the input from all you guys.
Btw, I'm seriously envious of Nigel's B200 OB (and you other lucky people)... with the money to buy a pair of those drivers, I could build around 10 pairs of the youyoung's W3-871s TQWT speakers. Although my next proj is beginning to be more expensive, the more pricy FE167 drivers in an MLTL (not folded, I used to mix up MLTL with TQWT, now I know the difference
)
KeithC said:
Perhaps even more so. My 1st T-amp supply used a 1A regulator and a little transformer that was not up to the task. Didn't sound good - way too much voltage sag. Never could get it very loud without clipping.
After that a bigger trnsformer really helped. Then moving to a 3A regulator allowed the amp to work very close to the voltage rail. The AMP6 uses a 5A regultor. Maybe more than needed, but it sure doesn't sag even at full amp power.
I tend to like the 3A regulator with a 10,000uF cap near the amp. A lot of guys here don't like the sound of the big cap. It probably comes down to damping factor. A strong, stiff power supply grabs hold of the speaker and provides a very tight, dry bass. A looser power supply allows over damped style drivers to live a little, which probably sounds pleasent. A matter fo taste.
The SMPS I've tested sound pretty good, but do sag a bit, even far from the rated current.
The PSU can really change the sound of the amp.
panomaniac said:
The Dr Amp is going to free up a Jensen car amp driving a system in the conservatory. This has a 7A regulated supply with one of those baked bean can 1F electrolytics with a voltage readout attached. I'm tempted to try it on the Charlize psu.
I really don't like saggy bass, which is why I now run Lowthers without subs. Used to run 'em OB - wonderful soundstage, but no bottom end at all. They're now in rear horns, which is about as saggy as I can take.
I've also got an old car battery in the garage, if this will take a charge I might give it a tryout - lots of amps there.
KeithC said:
This is an interesting subject. High or Low damping factor? I like the high damping factor, but I tend to use "loose" speakers. A lot of guys here don't like the sound of big caps in the PSU. I suppose the lower damping gives stiff speakers (e.g. Fostex, Lowther, etc.) a little more "swing".
I was talking to a speaker designer buddy last night about this. He says that with stiff speakers and/or low listening levels - low damping factor sounds better.High damping and stiff drivers with a low power amp can equal NO bass. Tube amps usually have a low damping factor, thus the "musicality".
Not until you get a very powerfull amp with high damping does the bass come back.
Bob Carver, of Carver Amps, used to claim he could imitate the sound of any amp just by changing the damping factor of his amps.
For me, the large PSU sounds better, not just tighter bass, but better dynamics and a wider soundstage. But that might not be the case with some speakers.
I'd like to know what you find in your PSU experiments.
Hey guys, I want to biamp using 2 Charlizes with two 2-way speakers. Can I connect both channels of one amp together after the input capacitor and perhaps get away with using less input capacitance (cheaper for film capacitance)? Or am I running into a DC problem? Am I in any event halving the input impedance by tying both channels together (therefore requiring I double the input capacitor)? Appreciate any help!
The ac impedance seen by the source will be halved regardless of whether you connect the inputs together before or after the coupling caps.
You could probably tie the inputs together after the cap so you can use just one coupling cap, but it could have an effect on the dc offset at the outputs and the amp's performance. Check to see if the bias votlages on the two inputs are the same. If they are you can try it and see if you can tell a difference by simply shorting the resistor side of the coupling caps together. The degraded performance and dc offset issues would come from a difference in bias voltages causing a dc current to flow through the input resistors if you connected the inputs together after the coupling cap.
I would use separate coupling caps for each channel. That way you have the potential to upgrade to an active crossover in front of each amp and could get rid of the passive crossovers.
You could probably tie the inputs together after the cap so you can use just one coupling cap, but it could have an effect on the dc offset at the outputs and the amp's performance. Check to see if the bias votlages on the two inputs are the same. If they are you can try it and see if you can tell a difference by simply shorting the resistor side of the coupling caps together. The degraded performance and dc offset issues would come from a difference in bias voltages causing a dc current to flow through the input resistors if you connected the inputs together after the coupling cap.
I would use separate coupling caps for each channel. That way you have the potential to upgrade to an active crossover in front of each amp and could get rid of the passive crossovers.
Can we do this?
Red Wine is going to have some new products in '06...
We are working on a new amplifier... "The Clari-T Signature-30" (30-watt, 24V, SLA powered)!
More info will be posted as it becomes available... up at the Red WIne Site.
So I would like to ask a few questions as I just got my Charlize kit and hope to have it up and running soon.
So some folks want more power in the T-amps with higher voltage
Then they will be bigger ( or not true?) and cost more, will they do some things better?
Can we do this with the Charlize? I guess one would use two boards then?
Any thoughts out there on this? Thanks in advance.
Red Wine is going to have some new products in '06...
We are working on a new amplifier... "The Clari-T Signature-30" (30-watt, 24V, SLA powered)!
More info will be posted as it becomes available... up at the Red WIne Site.
So I would like to ask a few questions as I just got my Charlize kit and hope to have it up and running soon.
So some folks want more power in the T-amps with higher voltage
Then they will be bigger ( or not true?) and cost more, will they do some things better?
Can we do this with the Charlize? I guess one would use two boards then?
Any thoughts out there on this? Thanks in advance.
tripath and CES
Tripath has some new things ready for CES as outlined here...
http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=121527&p=irol-newsArticle&t=Regular&id=796091&
Tripath expects to unveil the first product utilizing its Trivici architecture, a form of die-level integration for audio power processing for semiconductors. Tripath intends to demonstrate the Trivici-based product along with other products at CES from January 5-8, 2006 in booth #20766 in the South Hall of the Las Vegas Convention Center.
"Trivici is Tripath's proprietary digital amplifier architecture and represents a breakthrough in audio price and performance," said Dr. Adya S. Tripathi, President and Chief Executive Officer of Tripath. "Trivici is a scalable platform that we plan to leverage in multiple product introductions. This first product, an amplifier for flat-panel TVs, promises to set a new price-for-performance mark for the industry. Trivici reinforces our technological leadership and positions us with multiple market opportunities to support our growth strategy by bringing innovative and cost-effective solutions to our customers."
Tripath maintains the largest portfolio of switching amplifier products in the industry for both audio and communications applications, which are used by leading global consumer electronics companies from the U.S., Japan, China, Europe and other regions. At CES, Tripath will display a wide range of consumer products serving the Television, Home Theater, Automotive, and Consumer Convergence markets, including:
Is this new chip anything that would be good for Charlize fans around the world? Thanks in advance for any thoughts...
Tripath has some new things ready for CES as outlined here...
http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=121527&p=irol-newsArticle&t=Regular&id=796091&
Tripath expects to unveil the first product utilizing its Trivici architecture, a form of die-level integration for audio power processing for semiconductors. Tripath intends to demonstrate the Trivici-based product along with other products at CES from January 5-8, 2006 in booth #20766 in the South Hall of the Las Vegas Convention Center.
"Trivici is Tripath's proprietary digital amplifier architecture and represents a breakthrough in audio price and performance," said Dr. Adya S. Tripathi, President and Chief Executive Officer of Tripath. "Trivici is a scalable platform that we plan to leverage in multiple product introductions. This first product, an amplifier for flat-panel TVs, promises to set a new price-for-performance mark for the industry. Trivici reinforces our technological leadership and positions us with multiple market opportunities to support our growth strategy by bringing innovative and cost-effective solutions to our customers."
Tripath maintains the largest portfolio of switching amplifier products in the industry for both audio and communications applications, which are used by leading global consumer electronics companies from the U.S., Japan, China, Europe and other regions. At CES, Tripath will display a wide range of consumer products serving the Television, Home Theater, Automotive, and Consumer Convergence markets, including:
Is this new chip anything that would be good for Charlize fans around the world? Thanks in advance for any thoughts...
2 questions for the forum
1. Adding a capacitor on the input
Despite the mostly bad feedback I've seen here, I decided to give it a go. I tried a standard 4700uf electrolytic cap and I can't hear much difference.
- Does this make sense - should I be hearing any difference? Should my cap setup be different - different capacitance, better quality?
- Is the potential benefit even worth the hassle of playing with this?
2. Poping noise when starting to play
I haven't seen mention of this - a popping noise when I start playing. Only happens if Charlize has been idle for a while.
Something on the circuit/wiring needs charging?
1. Adding a capacitor on the input
Despite the mostly bad feedback I've seen here, I decided to give it a go. I tried a standard 4700uf electrolytic cap and I can't hear much difference.
- Does this make sense - should I be hearing any difference? Should my cap setup be different - different capacitance, better quality?
- Is the potential benefit even worth the hassle of playing with this?
2. Poping noise when starting to play
I haven't seen mention of this - a popping noise when I start playing. Only happens if Charlize has been idle for a while.
Something on the circuit/wiring needs charging?
