ceramic capacitors ....

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#122
syn08 said:


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- For supply decoupling, ceramics (even the X7R) are good enough; foil caps are inferior due to larger ESL, potentially leading to parasitic resonances.

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If I want a clean/low noise power supply, in a high vibration environment as audio is, I'll avoid as much as possible any Z5U or X7R cap.

Regards,
Tibi
 
#123
EUVL said:
I am sure you have a CD player, or a HiENd DAC with a CD transport.

Do you know how many X7R caps are in such a transport ?
What about caps within the ICs ? They are all polystyrene ?


Patrick
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This is one of the main reasons that many audiophiles, (like us, I hope) are using soundcare spikes and vibration absorbers inside chassis.
Less vibration - less "singing" from your X7R's . 😀

Regards,
Tibi
 
#125
syn08 said:


You are amazing, John 🙂 Who in hell said it will use ceramics instead of polypropilene, polystyrene, etc...?

This is for the 4th time I'm repeating this, here are my rules of thumb:

- Silver mica has larger DA than NP0 and C0G. In the same 0-100pF range, in the signal path (frequency compensation), NP0 and C0G ceramics are superior from all perspectives, in particular high voltage models.

- In the 100pF to 10nF range in the signal path (RIAA, etc...), the best option seems to be polystyrene.

- 10nF and up in the uF range, in the signal path (RIAA, interstage coupling, etc...), polypropilene rules.

- For supply decoupling, ceramics (even the X7R) are good enough; foil caps are inferior due to larger ESL, potentially leading to parasitic resonances.

- Teflon caps do not bring any significant improvements in audio.

Values ranges can be, of course, subject to debates and are somehow arbitrary.
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Excellent summary Syn08! I think this is what was asked for.

Regarding ceramics, I've taken some Kemet multilayer NP0's apart, and inside them are 0805 SMD chips with leads!

What's the advantage/disadvantege of using single vs multilayer ceramics?
 
#127

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#128
tvicol said:

If I want a clean/low noise power supply, in a high vibration environment as audio is, I'll avoid as much as possible any Z5U or X7R cap.
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Thud.

You need to review the role and purpose of a power supply decoupling cap and evaluate what is the performance impact of, say, 0.2% variation/modulation due to vibrations/microphony.

Don't forget to include in your analysis the fact that the ceramic cap almost always goes in parallel with an electrolytic that has usually 3 order of magnitude higher value and DA.

But then perhaps you enjoy the sound of Zeus amps or SE MOSFET amps with zero feedback and zero PSRR.

tvicol said:

This is one of the main reasons that many audiophiles, (like us, I hope) are using soundcare spikes and vibration absorbers inside chassis. Less vibration - less "singing" from your X7R's .
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Also always suspend your power cables on aged tek wooden blocks - that certainly helps eliminating the nasty vibration noise in the power cable AC impedance.
 
#129
syn08 said:


Thud.

You need to review the role and purpose of a power supply decoupling cap and evaluate what is the performance impact of, say, 0.2% variation/modulation due to vibrations/microphony.

Don't forget to include in your analysis the fact that the ceramic cap almost always goes in parallel with an electrolytic that has usually 3 order of magnitude higher value and DA.

But then perhaps you enjoy the sound of Zeus amps or SE MOSFET amps with zero feedback and zero PSRR.



Also always suspend your power cables on aged tek wooden blocks - that certainly helps eliminating the nasty vibration noise in the power cable AC impedance.
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Well syn08, it seems that we have different sound references. If these things don't make a difference for you, than you can stick with ceramics.

Regards,
Tibi
 
#133
also some very well educated EE, who supply audio kits for DIY -audio community prefer plastic film caps for decoupling

If you ask them why , you get the answer ".... we checked , and with film caps sounds better to our ears ......"



Erno Borbely - super buffer
 

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#136
Seems every time the discussion moves to a tacid understanding that NP0s are OK in certain applications, the generalists counterattack with "all ceramics are bad because they can't be good for every application, so they should be banned from all audio use" argument.
 
#137
pooge said:
Seems every time the discussion moves to a tacid understanding that NP0s are OK in certain applications, the generalists counterattack with "all ceramics are bad because they can't be good for every application, so they should be banned from all audio use" argument.
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Yes, NP0's are OK for some applications, but not high-end audio. 😀

Regards,
Tibi
 
#140
pooge said:


Would you care to specifically explain why this is not so? Is it for the reason you don't like to look up the code on the package?
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possibly because the high end manufacturers do not want their reputations tarnished by being seen to use supposedly inferior components, irrespective of whether these "cheap" components may do a better job.
 
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