taj said:
Because they are not used in consumer products, but only in professional products, as SH converters. And they are not used in consumer products (including high end audio) because they are not required. Low production levels means high prices. There are also some technological difficulties in the manufacturing process.
syn08 said:
Hmm... The prices fall well outside typical supply/demand economics. And what technological difficulties? I appreciate your reply, but you haven't brought me past the obvious stuff yet.
..Todd
scott wurcer said:
If you buy Cyril Bateman's extra stuff from his site, the additional files link DA to distortion. However, I don't find his arguments 100 percent convincing.
scott wurcer said:
Bateman mentioned something regarding 2nd harmonic and DA, if I recall, in one of the first two parts. But you would have to read it again to get a more accurate idea than I can provide without reading it again.
It is probably a topic which never will have any conclusion.
I don't doubt that film caps are more linear and less distorting than ceramic caps, but do we really want to rule out ceramics for ANY applications in Audio ?
Take decoupling caps for Digital ICs (e.g. a CS8416) as an example. All one would want is speed, small package and high resonance frequency. Are we saying that we rather use electrolytics or large size film caps with long leads, than to use 1206 X7Rs placed close to the chip ?
How would distortion or linearity affects the function of the cap in those applications ?
Patrick
I don't doubt that film caps are more linear and less distorting than ceramic caps, but do we really want to rule out ceramics for ANY applications in Audio ?
Take decoupling caps for Digital ICs (e.g. a CS8416) as an example. All one would want is speed, small package and high resonance frequency. Are we saying that we rather use electrolytics or large size film caps with long leads, than to use 1206 X7Rs placed close to the chip ?
How would distortion or linearity affects the function of the cap in those applications ?
Patrick
EUVL said:
Maybe studying a Stanford Resesrch or Audio Precision schematic would show where these things matter. They both make instruments with sub-ppm performance.
What's exactly your message ?
You mean they don't use any ceramic caps at all, even for digital ?
Thx,
Patrick
You mean they don't use any ceramic caps at all, even for digital ?
Thx,
Patrick
EUVL said:
No not at all, I meant that studying a carefull designed sub-ppm instrument might shed some insight. Unlike some audio products, Stanford instruments has a clear understandable schematic with complete BOM listed as an index. I doubt they wasted money where it did not matter.
jcx said:
Though polyethylene is an excellent dielectric I can't imagine the reason to make reliable capacitors from it, they would be too expensive despite of very low cost of a polyethylene itself. However, if consumer electronics is planned to dye and clean the market for new versions of equipment, it may be a good idea to make cheap caps from it...
scott wurcer said:
Often the same properties in capacitors cause both DA and non-linearities. Correlation don't necessary mean inter-dependence in each particular case.
taj said:
I can't have the foggiest idea what's obvious and what not to you or anybody else.
It is difficult to produce teflon in uM range sheets/strips. Also the adherence of most common metals to teflon is quite poor. Therefore teflon caps are bulky (lots extra dielectric, adding cost) and require exotic multilayer metallizations. For the same reason, you won't find many teflon caps rated to under 100V.
Wavebourn said:
Nonlinearity is nonlinearity, that is, nonlinearity. DA is just another nonlinear mechanism adding up with others.
john curl said:
Yes it is, JC.
Unless you and your associates have your own, new, for the use of high end audio, definition of nonlinearity.
In my books, a system that satisfies (a) additivity and (b)homogeneity properties is called linear. Otherwise, if either (a) or (b) are violated then the system is nonlinear. For electrokinetic systems, the solutions are always continuous functions, and it can easily be shown that, under these circumstances, additivity implies homogeneity for any real parameter (like any scalar variable you can think of). Not for complex parameters, like in antilinear maps.
You are welcomed, and I guess libraries are open today. Homework: find the material parameter that makes DA nonlinear in the above sense.
Come on, guys. Let's stop this needless, endless goating. We all have a common interest here. In most "clubs" people have a common interest in genuinely trying to help one another.
John, there is nothing wrong with your post on its face. I am not going to attribute any particular motive to why you wrote it like you did. However, surely you can recognize how it would inherently lead to another dozen pages of "yes it is"-"no its not" posts, when the alternative is to do a lot less work and take a lot less aggrivation for yourself with a few more words of explanation.
John, there is nothing wrong with your post on its face. I am not going to attribute any particular motive to why you wrote it like you did. However, surely you can recognize how it would inherently lead to another dozen pages of "yes it is"-"no its not" posts, when the alternative is to do a lot less work and take a lot less aggrivation for yourself with a few more words of explanation.
pooge said:
I'm ready to drop it as soon as the BS density in the engineering space is lower than an arbitrary epsilon.
What is phase shift, everyone? Is it non-linear distortion? Is it any kind of distortion? IF it is not a 'distortion' what do you call a time domain shift in pulse behavior, and why did analog computer people think it so important? PLEASE, learn first, argue later.
What is obfuscation of an issue?
John, do you HONESTLY believe we all wake up in the morning with nothing better to do than agitate you?
What may be "obvious" to you may not be obvious to others, especially when having to decipher cryptic, obfuscatory posts.
John, do you HONESTLY believe we all wake up in the morning with nothing better to do than agitate you?
What may be "obvious" to you may not be obvious to others, especially when having to decipher cryptic, obfuscatory posts.
john curl said:
John, you either never followed what is discussed here, or you intentionally divert again. The topic is the caps nonlinearities, not the type of distortions they induce.
Off topic, because I can see where you are driving this, I myself disagree with the concept of "linear distortions" as being an useless and confusing term.
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