Well, now we know where the magic comes from... holy speaker cable! There are some abandoned churches here, maybe I should check them out 💒
Audio device is like a wife or gf. There is a honeymoon and it either develops further into pleasant plateau or its starts to get on the nerve to the breaking point. How the hell are you going to predict the relationship with a blind test ? I'm positive I'd fail every test because that's what I'm good at but even I like what I like and you like what you like.
I like science and reason when I'm broke and penniless BUT in those rare moments of a full pockets...haha
I like science and reason when I'm broke and penniless BUT in those rare moments of a full pockets...haha
In my opinion there are differences in cables that can be explained by physics, such as that wire from monocrystalline copper (one strand is just one copper crystal) has better properties due to the absence of certain "boundaries" between the crystals so the passing electrons have a unrestricted path (sorry for the way I put it, I am not an expert). It depends on a lot of other circumstances if one can hear the difference, however.
What I mean to point out is that there are valid reasons why high-end cables with high-end prices may be actually better due to the high-end manufacturing process (cryogenic treatment, science-backed materials research -etc, -whatever), but that is not to say that one can hear the difference in a ABX blind test. And yes, the Marketing Department ups to the price big time as well. I worked in a high-end audio store for a while and while cables did make a difference in setups, it was much harder to tell which cable was better. It just sounded different, but not in a way that one was wrong and one was right. So choice of cables can be compared to adding spices and flavor to a dish. Not very scientific, but people enjoy that up to the point that they spend a lot on cables to get the right flavor they enjoy. Personally, I liked the 47Labs OTA cable with Avantgarde Duo horns. No expensive cable but good combination, to me at least. But it was obvious that certain combinations of gear and cables were to be avoided. So I think there is validity in mixing and matching cables and gear.
What I mean to point out is that there are valid reasons why high-end cables with high-end prices may be actually better due to the high-end manufacturing process (cryogenic treatment, science-backed materials research -etc, -whatever), but that is not to say that one can hear the difference in a ABX blind test. And yes, the Marketing Department ups to the price big time as well. I worked in a high-end audio store for a while and while cables did make a difference in setups, it was much harder to tell which cable was better. It just sounded different, but not in a way that one was wrong and one was right. So choice of cables can be compared to adding spices and flavor to a dish. Not very scientific, but people enjoy that up to the point that they spend a lot on cables to get the right flavor they enjoy. Personally, I liked the 47Labs OTA cable with Avantgarde Duo horns. No expensive cable but good combination, to me at least. But it was obvious that certain combinations of gear and cables were to be avoided. So I think there is validity in mixing and matching cables and gear.
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Sigh..
Every so often I find I have to inject actual "physics" into these threads.
The mean free path of an electron in a copper wire is in the tens of microns range at room temperature, Monocrystalline copper wire cannot exist once the wire has been bent, as work hardening immediately ruins any possibility of single crystal. When I use 7 nines copper wire that has been annealed to within an inch of its life, I have no way of knowing how much damage has been done to the conductivity at room temperature. And I have some very good equipment at my disposal to try and measure it. Some "guys" in Geneva wanted to make some solenoids using 7 nines copper overly annealed (smaller cross section (Z) for allowing antimatter annihilation products to get through to the detector), and I had to warn them that I could not guarantee the conductivity due to the process of winding the solenoids. They settled on using .004 inch niobium titanium superconductor with a slightly higher Z.
When I take the wire to 4.5 Kelvin (liquid helium), that is when I can measure a problem. Copper wire has what is called a triple r (RRR), which is a definition of how much better the conductivity is at 4.5K. At 4.5K, the mean free path increases to about 10 cm, so there are far less electron collisions (which translate into less resistance). It is also pertinent to the thermal conductivity of the metal. This is a trait shared with aluminum BTW, we use high purity heavily annealed aluminum when we need really good thermal conductivity without the slower dispersion velocity of copper. (note, above 50 kelvin both copper and aluminum regain their heat capacity so aluminum is better at thermal velocity there.
As to cryogenic treatment.. That is kinda what I do for a living (over 3 decades), and I've yet to measure a difference to any conductor after it has been taken to either 77K (liquid nitrogen) or 4.5K (liquid helium). We also go superfluid helium 3 (1.88K), and again no change.
But what do I know??
J
Every so often I find I have to inject actual "physics" into these threads.
The mean free path of an electron in a copper wire is in the tens of microns range at room temperature, Monocrystalline copper wire cannot exist once the wire has been bent, as work hardening immediately ruins any possibility of single crystal. When I use 7 nines copper wire that has been annealed to within an inch of its life, I have no way of knowing how much damage has been done to the conductivity at room temperature. And I have some very good equipment at my disposal to try and measure it. Some "guys" in Geneva wanted to make some solenoids using 7 nines copper overly annealed (smaller cross section (Z) for allowing antimatter annihilation products to get through to the detector), and I had to warn them that I could not guarantee the conductivity due to the process of winding the solenoids. They settled on using .004 inch niobium titanium superconductor with a slightly higher Z.
When I take the wire to 4.5 Kelvin (liquid helium), that is when I can measure a problem. Copper wire has what is called a triple r (RRR), which is a definition of how much better the conductivity is at 4.5K. At 4.5K, the mean free path increases to about 10 cm, so there are far less electron collisions (which translate into less resistance). It is also pertinent to the thermal conductivity of the metal. This is a trait shared with aluminum BTW, we use high purity heavily annealed aluminum when we need really good thermal conductivity without the slower dispersion velocity of copper. (note, above 50 kelvin both copper and aluminum regain their heat capacity so aluminum is better at thermal velocity there.
As to cryogenic treatment.. That is kinda what I do for a living (over 3 decades), and I've yet to measure a difference to any conductor after it has been taken to either 77K (liquid nitrogen) or 4.5K (liquid helium). We also go superfluid helium 3 (1.88K), and again no change.
But what do I know??
J
Hey let's start a group buy of speaker cables that have been submerged in holy water
Does a popular lately cryogenic treatment of wires and components ( if it's a real cryogenic process) results in any audible changes in sound you can detect ? Also there is a folk tale that age annealed wire sounds better and this is a partial reason some people look for old output transformers . Not for any nostalgic/retro fashion reason but purely for sound related reasons.
Also , why would a digital cable make any difference in acutely digital transfer but the damn thing does affect the sound even if supposedly digital standard of termination and impedance asheres to a standard
" Hey let's start a group buy of speaker cables that have been submerged in holy water"
Isnt it way more entertaining activity than spending money on shotguns and Jawelins ? I mean its harmless and money is transferred pretty much from wealthy to "have nots" which actually make those cables. The same with small companies still trying to make stuff in first world countries giving bread to skilled professionals and their families. Steady and plentiful suplly of cheap like chips products from poor countries we exploit won't last forever. These days are numbered. You all count others money but never say how much your professional time and skill is worth and for how much you're willing to sell it. How about $1.50 an hour ? I'll splurge to a $5 and make me those cables from holy water even if I can't hear a damn thing anymore
Isnt it way more entertaining activity than spending money on shotguns and Jawelins ? I mean its harmless and money is transferred pretty much from wealthy to "have nots" which actually make those cables. The same with small companies still trying to make stuff in first world countries giving bread to skilled professionals and their families. Steady and plentiful suplly of cheap like chips products from poor countries we exploit won't last forever. These days are numbered. You all count others money but never say how much your professional time and skill is worth and for how much you're willing to sell it. How about $1.50 an hour ? I'll splurge to a $5 and make me those cables from holy water even if I can't hear a damn thing anymore
It's kinda weird that you keep bringing up how everyone is poor. Can we have a moratorium on wealth talk?
I used to have CAT5 cables, made up as four pairs in parallel (from a TNT audio design). It made my speakers sound brighter. Then I got a new amplifier and the difference with a normal cable vanished, but better all round.
I now realise that the high capacitance/low inductance that this configuration gives had made my old amplifier marginally stable.
I now realise that the high capacitance/low inductance that this configuration gives had made my old amplifier marginally stable.
There's a lot of liquid BS on this thread but if you want to actually hear what cables do to the sound, instead of juju or physics wanking, you need to try the simple test in https://aes2.org/publications/elibrary-page/?id=3798.
Cables DO affect the sound but NOT in any of ways described in this thread or da makers propaganda. Da cables with fancy insulation and construction often have real frequency response funnies ... depending on the amp and the speaker. The best cables 'change' the sound very simply and Lightning Conductor has the least simple change of all.
I mention Churches in the Yorkshire Dales cos that's where we got the Lightning Conductor from. Dunno if stuff from a Mosque or Synagogue would be any better cos we didn't test them.
"It's kinda weird that you keep bringing up how everyone is poor. Can we have a moratorium on wealth talk?"
It's you who constantly allude to "ripoff" which is a sure sign of the state of your finances and most people are here (myself included ) to save the money which is the ONLY value our society has.
It's you who constantly allude to "ripoff" which is a sure sign of the state of your finances and most people are here (myself included ) to save the money which is the ONLY value our society has.
🙄 suit yourself. Ignore my request if you like. I'm just saying it adds a sour note to the conversation when you're saying everyone on this site is poor and doesn't buy expensive cables because they can't afford it
Anyways, I don't think your argument makes any sense. I'm not going to get into the state of my finances, but I don't buy lottery tickets either, which pretty much anyone can afford. Why? They're a ripoff. If I want to benevolently part with whatever wealth I have, it's going to charity, not people trying to rob me with their scammy wares
Anyways, I don't think your argument makes any sense. I'm not going to get into the state of my finances, but I don't buy lottery tickets either, which pretty much anyone can afford. Why? They're a ripoff. If I want to benevolently part with whatever wealth I have, it's going to charity, not people trying to rob me with their scammy wares
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I think you're perfectly reasonable person with a " thing " regarding cables. Im not in position to buy expensive cables nor feel they are necessary. I just have nothing against their existence and availability for public to buy them as they please for the amount they can afford. I do think they make a difference also as an esthetic last touch to a system often representing labor of love and considerable effort and expense. You want people willing to sink small fortune on equipment to get Romex from Home Depot ?
I have no issue with people spending their money however they like. I do have an issue with companies feeding into these flights of fancy, and manipulating consumers into their wasting money. Take hifijim's anecdote from earlier:
"In the mid 1990's, I had a friend who wanted a substantial upgrade to his music system. He went to a hi fi shop with a $5000 budget, which was a lot of money back then. The salesman steered him to some Thiel speakers and some nice electronics, but he allocated a substantial amount for cables and interconnects. The final bill was $1200 for speaker wire and RCA cables, and $4400 for speakers and electronics, which I thought was an outrageous ratio. I told him that $150 out of $5000 would have been more appropriate for wire and cable, and he could have spent the extra money elsewhere. This is an example of the snake oil sales tactics that @Bryguy was talking about."
When I bring my car to the car wash, it really feels like it drives faster and more smoothly after. Obviously it doesn't, but the feeling is quite convincing. It's a nice feeling, but personally it won't compel me to drop 1/4 of the value of my car on an exotic premium car wash the next time it needs cleaning. If someone else does, that's their prerogative, but if tomorrow I see an advertisement for a $6,000 car wash that promises to improve the performance of my vehicle, I won't hesitate to call it a scam
"In the mid 1990's, I had a friend who wanted a substantial upgrade to his music system. He went to a hi fi shop with a $5000 budget, which was a lot of money back then. The salesman steered him to some Thiel speakers and some nice electronics, but he allocated a substantial amount for cables and interconnects. The final bill was $1200 for speaker wire and RCA cables, and $4400 for speakers and electronics, which I thought was an outrageous ratio. I told him that $150 out of $5000 would have been more appropriate for wire and cable, and he could have spent the extra money elsewhere. This is an example of the snake oil sales tactics that @Bryguy was talking about."
When I bring my car to the car wash, it really feels like it drives faster and more smoothly after. Obviously it doesn't, but the feeling is quite convincing. It's a nice feeling, but personally it won't compel me to drop 1/4 of the value of my car on an exotic premium car wash the next time it needs cleaning. If someone else does, that's their prerogative, but if tomorrow I see an advertisement for a $6,000 car wash that promises to improve the performance of my vehicle, I won't hesitate to call it a scam
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Not that this means anything, but I have a pair of multi thousand dollar retail cardas cables in my cable box. I use my mogami because they're not as bulky and annoying to hook up. I tried them out of curiosity, and was not impressed. Doesn't prove anything, but I'm not just speaking from a complete place of inexperience with snake oil cables. Finally got around to listing them on eBay, and I absolutely did not write in the description anything about how amazing they sound, or make false promises like these manufacturers do. I also have "high end" interconnects and power cables kicking around. I use none of them because they're all annoyingly bulky. One set of XLR's from Avanti audio actually is quite nice from an ease of use perspective, so I use those from time to time. Will sell those too if I can because I have cheaper cables which are just as nice to use
https://avantiaudio.com/products/allegro-balanced-analog-interconnects?variant=37519666512063
(I got all these cables as parts of bundle deals with other equipment I actually wanted)
https://avantiaudio.com/products/allegro-balanced-analog-interconnects?variant=37519666512063
(I got all these cables as parts of bundle deals with other equipment I actually wanted)
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The point I'm trying to make is that some Golden Pinnae cables, especially those with fancy insulation & construction, can make things sound worse
Of course you may like an extra 1dB or more peak introduced at HF by your supa dupa cable .. in which case, please ignore anything I say 😱
I hear you about the bulky cables. I dragged home from flea market some Audio Metallurgy ( where sound meets the science) - I kid you not 🙂 " Gold Alloy interconnects and to my dismay I can't bend the damn thing to hook it up because the rack is too close to wall and I'm not moving 100 lbs just to try a patch cord .
I used this with excellent results:
https://store.systoncable.com/products/bulk1588?_pos=6&_sid=110b2b000&_ss=r
I even separate pairs for internal wiring.
Edit before I’m called out: Yes, that gauge is excessive in most cases. These cables are exceedingly well made and used in network applications where billions of dollars are at stake daily. So, my point is that if you are going to try network cables for audio, they should be a good reference point.
Overall, I don’t think cables matter much, except if they have weird capacitance/impedance characteristics.
https://store.systoncable.com/products/bulk1588?_pos=6&_sid=110b2b000&_ss=r
I even separate pairs for internal wiring.
Edit before I’m called out: Yes, that gauge is excessive in most cases. These cables are exceedingly well made and used in network applications where billions of dollars are at stake daily. So, my point is that if you are going to try network cables for audio, they should be a good reference point.
Overall, I don’t think cables matter much, except if they have weird capacitance/impedance characteristics.
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