Why is there so much hate towards doing properly controlled tests? This is DIY speaker stuff. People measure, people like to use science to build speakers but when it comes to doing some listening everyone gets all **** about doing at least a decent job in controlling the test.
Yes, when people see a product color, brand, price tag, etc they will subconsciously use that in their conclusions. Its a simple fact so why not try and remove these false variables?
There is no belief needed, no religious experience. Its cold,dry and hard science that makes the world a better place do not hate it because without it the world would be stuck in the dark ages.
Btw, Im not saying different makes of caps do not sound different. I personally do not care about the spitting hairs audiophile differences in them and budget will dictate the choice for me.
Yes, when people see a product color, brand, price tag, etc they will subconsciously use that in their conclusions. Its a simple fact so why not try and remove these false variables?
There is no belief needed, no religious experience. Its cold,dry and hard science that makes the world a better place do not hate it because without it the world would be stuck in the dark ages.
Btw, Im not saying different makes of caps do not sound different. I personally do not care about the spitting hairs audiophile differences in them and budget will dictate the choice for me.
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That's a wholly different story.
Science,hard cold etc, couldn't care less,of your "personally do not care" stint.
It is hard,cold,proven scientific facts.No?
If,by any chance,you will be forced to choose between several caps of the exact same budget,what would you do,how and why?
B.L
Good question, BL.
Although nothing is forced upon us. Several caps in the exact same budget, hmmm.. Give me the one that works the best and is commonly used. There are far more important issues in speaker building to get right then fussing over the differences of two caps. Some experts on here can surely fuss over them because they have spent years perfecting a speaker build specific to their needs but unless I have the room and everything else looked after first Im not going to worry over the splitting hairs difference between properly working caps. If it matters then I would just spend more $$$ but I will decide if its matters. Honestly I never have a real budget to DIY speaker building and I tend to buy drivers far more expensive then other DIYers.
Everyone has goals and priorities. I just think its funny to have so many subjective posts spitting on science like its not needed in audio. Especially in a DIY forum where sceince is #1 in terms of speaker building.
Although nothing is forced upon us. Several caps in the exact same budget, hmmm.. Give me the one that works the best and is commonly used. There are far more important issues in speaker building to get right then fussing over the differences of two caps. Some experts on here can surely fuss over them because they have spent years perfecting a speaker build specific to their needs but unless I have the room and everything else looked after first Im not going to worry over the splitting hairs difference between properly working caps. If it matters then I would just spend more $$$ but I will decide if its matters. Honestly I never have a real budget to DIY speaker building and I tend to buy drivers far more expensive then other DIYers.
Everyone has goals and priorities. I just think its funny to have so many subjective posts spitting on science like its not needed in audio. Especially in a DIY forum where sceince is #1 in terms of speaker building.
You do mean of course,the one better fit,to the design requirements.And,as far as this thread,and accepted wisdom goes,it can be done, by using both measurements,and "hands on" listening.So what the fuss is all about? Scientific arrogance,as one poster wrote,or blind ignorance of the non scientific members of the community, to prevail? I am at a loss,always.
B.L.
SY, boutique caps have more microphonic issues than mass produced? I thought boutiques were generally trying to make a less microphonic cap and thus the claimed exotic manufacturing methods.
Wolf, and anyone else who seems to find criticism uncomfortable, please don't think that b/c some people try and help you set up a more meaningful test that we are somehow being in any way shape or form negative or derogatory. "Critical?" yes. We are simply trying to get something meaningful--even for ourselves--and not misleading for others out of this. Something to benefit the DIY audio community. There were plenty more obvious flaws in the test design that I didn't even want to get into, just the easiest to fix was what I was looking for. I assume you don't have a large budget and vast quantities of time to fix all the obvious shortcomings. What you've done so far is a different scale of difficulty to do than the implementations I was asking for. Seriously, I applaud the heck out of what you've done. No you'll never completely satisfy everyone--not a bad thing. It is simply part of getting a tests validity accepted in the community of peers and short comings understood by all--peer review. We know that caps can make a difference, the real question is "how much?" No experiment is above criticism and I'm grateful. Experimentation with human experience involved just makes the variables more difficult to control--this isn't physics or chemistry. We have a lot of senses, past experiences, biases, thought, aptitudes, etc... that just make isolating variables tough for even experienced researchers.
Just a neutral perspective,
Dan
Wolf, and anyone else who seems to find criticism uncomfortable, please don't think that b/c some people try and help you set up a more meaningful test that we are somehow being in any way shape or form negative or derogatory. "Critical?" yes. We are simply trying to get something meaningful--even for ourselves--and not misleading for others out of this. Something to benefit the DIY audio community. There were plenty more obvious flaws in the test design that I didn't even want to get into, just the easiest to fix was what I was looking for. I assume you don't have a large budget and vast quantities of time to fix all the obvious shortcomings. What you've done so far is a different scale of difficulty to do than the implementations I was asking for. Seriously, I applaud the heck out of what you've done. No you'll never completely satisfy everyone--not a bad thing. It is simply part of getting a tests validity accepted in the community of peers and short comings understood by all--peer review. We know that caps can make a difference, the real question is "how much?" No experiment is above criticism and I'm grateful. Experimentation with human experience involved just makes the variables more difficult to control--this isn't physics or chemistry. We have a lot of senses, past experiences, biases, thought, aptitudes, etc... that just make isolating variables tough for even experienced researchers.
Just a neutral perspective,
Dan
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Other then the first part talking about "Best", the rest does not make sense.
Are you saying accurate Caps do not sound best?
Why would I buy anything but an accurate cap, is there a build thread you can point me too where the Expert is choosing non-accurate caps and building an accurate XO from them?
If your point is about the speaker then it still does not make sense because there has never been a speaker designed and built without science involved. Not one!
Science helps everyone, including those trying to rip it. Without it we have nothing.
In my experience, the best made caps have limited microphonics, usually better than many cheaper, more popular caps (because of a lower price due to volume and cost reducing manufacturing tradeoffs). However, SOME really pretty caps can have MORE microphonics such as the MIAL Styrene caps that I have hundreds of, due to their construction. Many high end audio manufacturers use audio specified Reliable Caps because they seem to have very low microphonics, high quality copper leads, and generally good manufacturing techniques, without serious compromises.
No,no,no.
That's not right.
There are no, # 1's or # 2's. Just plain,unadultered synergy,with no bias and empathy
But it looks like, these things,are small change
B.L
Thanks Dan, SY and John. Sorry SY, I was playing Devil's advocate for a second and new you could enlighten my limited understanding. Here's a bit more serious question however, which type(s) of cap should have the least microphonics? Oil? That would be my guess, but it's just a guess. FWIW, the teflon insulated wire I have is considerably stiffer/harder than PE or PVC. Though formulation of these things can vary. I sculpt with a PVC formulation that feels nothing like Schedule 40 or 80 PVC pipe.
Dan
Dan
Clarity Caps' MR series caps address microphonic resonances as claimed in their AES paper linked in an earlier post.
I also believe Mundorf's manufacturing methods are intended to maximize winding quality.
Nope, the least microphonic would be caps that are machine made from a film that's very hard and has high tensile strength and high flex modulus (i.e., good stiffness). That would be... ta-daaa! polypropylene.
Speaker Doc, check out the second post in this thread:
Thanks SY! Good info to know.
Dan
Got you covered there. I was looking for a bit more general info.
Thanks SY! Good info to know.
Dan
"got you covered there".... Not sure you do.
The first link you posted is the full research report which is the one I was referring to.
The second link on the foroum discussion of the CC paper is a pure marketing-driven document that totally ignores the problems the researchers had trying to find a test panel and methodology that made their MR caps fare better. I think those in the forum discussion were referring the the white paper which I agree was pure marketing drivel. However, the research paper that came out later isn't.
The last link is simply a comparison of apples and oranges. Two listeners -whoo-hoo!
Moving the crossover out of the box so to speak reduces the effect of vibration on the parts. It is interesting to me that this is still going on for after 30 years since the first cap article in Audio mag by Walt Jung . See other posts for reference. Hard science has shown that cap sound different because they differ in performance from the ideal . Cost is a factor for mass production less for the DIY types . This is not a hobby for the closed minded . This first thing I learned in logic class (classic not digital ) was the step you skip saying it a given is where the fault lies. enjoy the journey not just the end.
I disagree. Not with the "you choose" part, but with the science won't help you there", etc. I believe that measurement CAN help you there if you know what to measure and what to look for.
You need to know what changes - other than those of an ideal cap - are being made to the system. What is the harmonic structure of the cap's distortion - if any? Does it vary with power or frequency or both? That can tell you a lot about how well the cap is constructed. And as others have mentioned ESR and other effects. All this stuff can be measured. Knowing how these effect the total outcome is the really hard part.
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