For those who missed the datasheet of the Phily axial exturded foil polystyrene cap Mr Bateman referred to :
www.diyaudio.com/forums/analog-line-level/172166-polystyrene-caps-filters-2.html#post2290238
(don't bother with the trader reference, a brother conspirator offered to tag-team rob the place)
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Nope- I will not show that. The FR is irrelevant if everything else remains constant, including the caps' measured values.
The reason I cannot do the cardboard cover, is that some connections are alligator-changed from test to test, but not within a test. Be assured, the wire is the same length from the switch in all connection applications, and the caps I will be using for the test are virtually dead-on values. I did have variance between various brands, but due to that issue, those particular caps will not be used.
As to induced bias, I will not state anything about the performance of either in the test, or what is what, so how can you think I'll contribute bias?
If you think I 'briefed' my family on what to listen for, I assure you I did not. I just played a track, and they told me what they heard.
It is possible Clarity tested PX to MR, or even SA to MR. IMO, SA caps are very nice for the price, and are probably a good percentage of the MR character. If they used those- I could see why the issues of repeatability and differentiation could come into play as being difficult.
For that matter, I will be using a "wide-spread difference factor" (patent-pending)
in the tests...
Later,
Wolf
The reason I cannot do the cardboard cover, is that some connections are alligator-changed from test to test, but not within a test. Be assured, the wire is the same length from the switch in all connection applications, and the caps I will be using for the test are virtually dead-on values. I did have variance between various brands, but due to that issue, those particular caps will not be used.
As to induced bias, I will not state anything about the performance of either in the test, or what is what, so how can you think I'll contribute bias?
If you think I 'briefed' my family on what to listen for, I assure you I did not. I just played a track, and they told me what they heard.
It is possible Clarity tested PX to MR, or even SA to MR. IMO, SA caps are very nice for the price, and are probably a good percentage of the MR character. If they used those- I could see why the issues of repeatability and differentiation could come into play as being difficult.
For that matter, I will be using a "wide-spread difference factor" (patent-pending)
in the tests...Later,
Wolf
Even your body language can offer a 'tell' to the test subjects.As to induced bias, I will not state anything about the performance of either in the test, or what is what, so how can you think I'll contribute bias?
It's not about whether you do give anything away, it's about whether or not you can. If you can, then from a third-party perspective, the test might be compromised, and the data is not as valid as that from a true double blind test.
Read the story of Clever Hans. Everyone was totally honest in that event, yet a horse could apparently do arithmetic.
Generally, the audiophile version of this story is the "wife who doesn't care about hifi" who is always "in the next room" and shouts, "What did you change, I like it?" but there are lots of variants.
Generally, the audiophile version of this story is the "wife who doesn't care about hifi" who is always "in the next room" and shouts, "What did you change, I like it?" but there are lots of variants.
Wolf, champion poker players know when to hold them and when to fold them right? It's not all counting cards. It's reading a person. A good poker face takes a life long time to master and it extends well beyond the face. I wasn't suggesting you 'briefed' your family on anything. It's just that we learn to read people from a very young age(hopefully) with various degrees of ability. Ever noticed how much more effective live communication is than web reading? There are a number of books related to the subject and even how to better your ability to do it. I'm not making this up and it's obvious if you think about it. We even attempt to hide emotions under different social conditions with varying amounts of success. Someone who is good at reading people will not easily be fooled.
Check here for starters: Nonverbal Communication - Listen With Your Eyes - Tips for Understanding Nonverbal Communication
Dan
Check here for starters: Nonverbal Communication - Listen With Your Eyes - Tips for Understanding Nonverbal Communication
Dan
In regard to blind/non-blind audio testing, I'm always fascinated by some here on the forum that think that we as humans are so easily swayed and fooled by our own brains that we don't have any self-control over our biases. I wonder if that line of thinking doesn't say more about them and their weaknesses than it does about the population in general?
I hope this doesn't mean that you're using alligator clips for connections. Henchman and I tried using alligator clips; very bad idea indeed. The pre-made clip leads lent a lot of credence to the poor connection/intermetallic diode hypothesis; they sounded remarkably harsh. Heavier wire, soldered connections, bigger alligators all helped, but not a lot. I'd suggest a good switch, heavy duty, silver(?) contacts, or better, a quick solder job or two interchangeable xovers.
I'd also suggest consistent, two minutes? listens, replaying the same piece of music each time. And of course there should be a few dry runs so that everyone is well acquainted with the music. Acoustic instruments, cymbals and sharp transients and full orchestral passages seem to work best, and familiarity with live music is a help. A break after four or five passes helps prevent fatigue.
I never saw any objection to single blind, if you don't show yourself or speak; a brick wall, professionally certified for opacity should be adequate for hiding tell-tale self. Perhaps a hydraulically raised and lowered flag, positioned identically and at the same speed every time... and of course a recorded voice could be used for signaling the testees.
How did you know, how things are in my home ?
I have the exact opposite. My wife yelling from the next room, "Why are you wasting your time with that ****?"
FWIW, I did some tests a while back with the results shown here.
"Good" and "bad" are up to the listener but measurements show differences between every type of cap. IMHO, if you had an electrically perfect cap, you might not like it, as Sy's example with the Maggies shows. Like everything else, caps are part of a system and can't be looked at with blinders. Personally, I don't hear much difference between most quality caps except where a circuit is particularly sensitive to some particular thing, usually esr.
"Good" and "bad" are up to the listener but measurements show differences between every type of cap. IMHO, if you had an electrically perfect cap, you might not like it, as Sy's example with the Maggies shows. Like everything else, caps are part of a system and can't be looked at with blinders. Personally, I don't hear much difference between most quality caps except where a circuit is particularly sensitive to some particular thing, usually esr.
Why, did you expect facts ?
Factual material/construction differences can be illustrated, you tell how these can be linked to factual perceiving differences.
(all polyprops are likely indigestinguishable)
I expect nothing, but the usual debate and putgets really trying
I wouldn't have a clue!
Possibly, but do they sound different from teflon, polystyrene, or paper in oils.
What is being debated other that the usual differences don't exist except when under DBT - this debate will never go away!
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