Interaction between audio chain components and environment should be taken into the account as well. DAC is not on the bench connected to AP.
Usual DAC output impedance is from 100 to 200 Ω. There are preamplifiers with only several K input impedance. One DAC can be more insensitive on high RF mains and environment noise than another. DAC transient behavior with some capacitive load can differ, and so on.
Not even exactly, perfectly true for an amplifier, and dacs are more complicated than that. Its amazing how many people believe simplified models used for measurements are the same as the physical reality. Its also sad that so many people are resistant to learning new things. They are stuck in their old mental models of how things work. Some want to believe sigma delta dacs are no different from amplifiers when it comes to measurements.
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Well, AP is the source and sink so DAC is being fed by AP and driving AP - so normal day for DAC ;-D
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Output impedance of 500 ohm or less, input impedance of 10 kohm or more. Are there devices that don't fit? A few, not very many. Capacitive load? Unless you are running a 100 ft of cable when is that a problem? If short cable has troublesome capacitance then switch cable. If you are running a passive volume control yes you'll need to be careful.
Not having the dac isolated from USB bus, not reclocking before the dac itself, etc., all cause little quality problems. When Bohrok2610 gets his impressive numbers, he isn't cutting corners like the commercial dacs some of you guys think are good. Its that most here know so little about dacs, yet they are way overconfident in that they think they know everything about measuring a dac.
Several years ago ESS held a seminar to try to explain to dac neophytes how things really are. Nobody wants to know about it. Its means trying to learn new things. Nobody wants to do that.
Several years ago ESS held a seminar to try to explain to dac neophytes how things really are. Nobody wants to know about it. Its means trying to learn new things. Nobody wants to do that.
The cheap Topping I have is isolated well enough from the USB bus. There is no need to reclock as being fed over USB the clock is generated at the DAC.
Wrong. Topping makes a USB isolator they can sell you. Its not very good though.
Also, inside the dac any reclocking in done in very jittery CPLD with lots of other signals going through it. There is much more to doing it right than you know. If you want to learn, one place to start and where you can ask questions is at: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/general-purpose-dac-clock-board.413001/
The dacs you have are all built to a price point which will allow them to sell in the thousands of units. Of course corners have to be cut and compromises made.
Also, inside the dac any reclocking in done in very jittery CPLD with lots of other signals going through it. There is much more to doing it right than you know. If you want to learn, one place to start and where you can ask questions is at: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/general-purpose-dac-clock-board.413001/
The dacs you have are all built to a price point which will allow them to sell in the thousands of units. Of course corners have to be cut and compromises made.
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Why would one need to know everything? I mean I would decide to get rid of it in a second when my source would be perfect. Superfluous devices really. It seems they keep being produced and sold as the sources are made (intentionally?) with lesser internal DACs or no internal DAC. It is business.
It is like a car towing a trailer with a better engine.
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People keep claiming that PSS measurements are sufficient to tell if two dacs are good enough. ESS called BS on that at least 10 years ago. Why do users think they know more about dacs than ESS does?
Not only that, @MarcelvdG has often gone out of his way to explain details of sigma delta dacs. He also published a tutorial article in Linear Audio on building a tube dac.
Efforts are being made to help teach people who want to learn. But too many people have no interest in learning new things. They want to believe old stuff that is oversimplified as compared to physical reality. As technical people shouldn't we want to know the technical truth?
Not only that, @MarcelvdG has often gone out of his way to explain details of sigma delta dacs. He also published a tutorial article in Linear Audio on building a tube dac.
Efforts are being made to help teach people who want to learn. But too many people have no interest in learning new things. They want to believe old stuff that is oversimplified as compared to physical reality. As technical people shouldn't we want to know the technical truth?
Maybe the time-effort/gain scale is somewhat out of tune. The days of plain bad sounding stuff are gone (I recall making a batch of Philips UDA1352TS all-in-one chip based DACs that I threw away once I had connected them), recent stuff is decent enough for many and maybe squeezing that last % performance out of DAC designs has become a hobby for true DAC nerds. I don't know. All I know is that some of the affordable ones of today are good enough for me, no need to spend a multiple of that amount both in money and in time to something DIY measuring better but sounding equal.
As said I would prefer to have none really. If it would be done like this with active loudspeakers then there would be better amplifiers at the outside of the loudspeakers. A source with internal DAC module that can be replaced when a better module is developed would be excellent.
As said I would prefer to have none really. If it would be done like this with active loudspeakers then there would be better amplifiers at the outside of the loudspeakers. A source with internal DAC module that can be replaced when a better module is developed would be excellent.
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Its okay if people don't have time or interest to learn, but then they shouldn't claim they know more than they do about how to measure and or how to interpret measurements.
D50III and D90+ both best measuring but this review seems to tell them apart
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It doesn't work that way , some are more inclined and prepared to teach than other , beliefs can easely be overcome with the right teach 🙂
technical truth is almost a myth in this so subjective matter 😉
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49% of the participants could be victims of placebo effect and or confirmation bias. Psychological effects are very likely in subjective listening comparisons.
IMHO..
Once upon a time, in the 90s, in Usenet, there was a simple forum rule: When someone brought up either Hitler or the Nazis it was time to lock down the thread.
I think we should have a new rule for Audio Forums such as this: When someone brings up ASR or Amir and his measurements it's time to lock down the thread.
If you hadn't blocked Mark, you would know that that actually applies to 72 %.
Same applies to people who expect no difference in sound.
I don't know how good their isolator is. Never needed it. All DACs are built to a price point. The fact some are sold in thousand of units in no way impeaches their quality. Over time it has been possible to improve DAC chips way beyond those of yore and it much lower pricing. There is no magic guarantee that expensive is better or hand touched is even equal. If the isolator in no way changes the output then it is doing nothing useful.
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