Until you (or someone else) actually demonstrates that it's a fact rather than a figment.
Nor anyone else's, I suspect. It's nice to see you acknowledge that there's probably no "there" there.
Quote: "A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it". Max Planck, 'The Structure of Scientific Revolutions' p. 151, Thomas Kuhn, cited from pervious work.
It it's just misinterpretation of break-in that was always based on reliability theory that says, probability of failure goes down exponentially. That's why there always had been break-in phase in manufacturing, before a final quality control phase.
Many High-end gurus and "Engineers" are home-brew species, they often don't know what they do and why, that's why they follow beliefs and fashions in their work inventing weird explanations of things they don't understand.
SY is on the spike all the time
Yes, yes and yes. (apples compared to pears doesn't do a match.).
I know it's not a contest but I have my bets... 😛
SY is very well hitting the point here. To the extent I'm beginning to really get seriously amused of this thread. Best thread in a long time.
Keep it up please 😀
Yes, yes and yes. (apples compared to pears doesn't do a match.).
I know it's not a contest but I have my bets... 😛
SY is very well hitting the point here. To the extent I'm beginning to really get seriously amused of this thread. Best thread in a long time.
Keep it up please 😀
And you were right. I never called myself Hi-end Guru, and I am an Engineer, not an "Engineer". 🙂
Similarly to Break-In, many other myths got their beginning from real things, misunderstood by home-brew Gurus and "Engineers".
"Break-in" as a term in this context is a marketeer's invention. Prior to the use of the term by copy writers the term used - in the UK at least - was "soak-test". As you rightly say above, this period was used to test reliability and for no other reason! Clearly the longer the test period - or soak test - the more reliable the unit would tend to be in use.
Welcome back!🙂
If you look at reliability charts during the life of electronic items they tend to go wrong either when they are very new or old.
This means if you soak test them they will skip over the very new faults by being repaired at the factory.
With my amps I always run them for an hour or two before putting them into serious use.
This means if you soak test them they will skip over the very new faults by being repaired at the factory.
With my amps I always run them for an hour or two before putting them into serious use.
So, according to the information presented here by knowledgeable people, it greatly depends on number of parts, soldered joints and contacts, thermal regimes, humidity, and other similar things, like MTBF of each part. But as soon as the equipment went out of the doors of the manufacturer, it is no longer a "soak-test" period. It is a Russian Roulette: you can be happy with it, or need to return or repair.
Another thing for consideration, is a "Break-In Period", as known as a post - hypnotic suggestion. Even if nobody promised the buyer that the equipment would break-in, it works! For example, tobacco or alcohol sellers don't "program" customers directly suggesting that their products give them any benefit. But buyers and users of such things are already pre-programmed by mass misunderstanding, and believe that spending money on poisons they are getting some value. Contrary to real facts, that nobody got nothing good from first drink, nor from the first cigarette. It is a well known fact to everyone, who uses alcohol and tobacco: the first time it was horrible!. But a mass misunderstanding pre-programmed them to believe that there is at least a minimal value both in alcohol and tobacco. Their organisms learned to combat poisons, but when it only expects a poison it dis-balances an endocrine system, to be ready to combat poisons, and this dis-balance causes pain that calls for a poison!
The same way works suggestion about break-in of an audio equipment: even if nobody suggests that it will break-in, the buyer already expects it. His/her subconscious mind is already pre-programmed, and expects a break-in. The same way, as a patient's subconscious mind, when he sits in a therapist's chair in a deep trance, expects to wake up and feel great after exact period of time the doctor suggested. I know exactly how it happens, and believe me, patient's subconscious mind can calculate fractions of seconds, when to wake up and to feel great!
Like, you are, if it was not a joke, when you started the thread from pre-supposition. You did not ask if break-in happens or not! You pre-supposed that it does! And asked, when it DOES. That means, you spread hypnotic suggestions among readers of this thread, even if you don't know that. Unlike a therapists that uses presuppositions intentionally to make patients feel better.
My 2cents
Hello again folks
I say this because of my experience. OK I'm not a person that anyone have high regards in here (I'm not very well known) but I can hear difference in two different manufactures of OP's in the same circuit. Testfigures around + -0.2 dB frequency response and + - 0.2dB amplification. That I thought was impossible before my latest findings. (testing a DAC very troughly) Testsignals and FFT shows no dissimilarities though. So I can't back it up with figures.
So, I'm a bit contradictory in my coments in this thead , Am I?
I also did some other tests recently. Only to myself and not blind ones, but just the descent ones from an old (grumpy) technician .. to the same old man ... myself 🙂
One of them was with one capacitor of a special manufaturer (that some people believe sound "harch" and someone found very good) with ... no other capacitor at all (bypassed).
... I couldn't hear a difference at all, I'm sorry for that. Would I then hear the difference with another capacitor, I mean a paper in oil type ? Maybe .. if it's one of those (coloroation) "motorcaps", "paper in oil", or this or that one, I don't know.
Are you following me or am I just stupid to not believe in all I hear (not audio but "hearing" in the forums of the web .. )
I have also discovered something even more interresting lately.
Me and my sensitivity of hearing is (me myself, in this time in life, 47 years of age) very sensitive to distortion of any kind.
I have, on my DAC project, managed to lower the OP's THD from -87 dB and -92 to 95dB THD with a bit little less amplification factor. (one volt RMS instead of 2V)
That was a mighty improvement. I have an ongoing thread about my modded DAC with the old TDA1541A (my "welcome to the world" project of DAC's and D/A circuits ), I must say I have learned a lot along the way. For the moment I'm in "PAR" with my OP vs Tubed CCDA discrete amplifier.
Yes, at first I thought the discreete tubeamp was better but when I tried to give the red carpet to the OP as well, I was not that sure. But shouldn't the discrete amplifier allways out compete the OP's? I would have loved it with all my efforts lately, but I'm not sure anymore ....
Building a PCB for switchable testing
So I'm building a PCB to do seamlessly switchings between them two. Now that they have very near figures around THD, frequency responce and amplitude, an A/B test reveals ... very little. And from the beginning I really wanted to have the CCDA discrete tubestage to be the clear winner, It isn't but they are very close and sound different in there carachters.
So, when it comes to the bare bones .. OP amplifiers is actually really well behaving... I'm sorry if that wasn't something you wanted to hear. 🙂
Then this thread about burning in things. Partically the cables?
I have tried the cheap ones and the expensive ones. I have also built my own made cables (because I can, and also have full acces to all the best cables at my work).
In a proper built preamp, which I am talking about in this very lengthy post, it doesnt measure or sound any different at all if you keep them short, less then 1.5 meters.
But then, again often mentioned, if you have a long cable, a cheap one (signature is high capacistance)
you will hear a big difference. Particarly after an SRPP tubestage with somewhat poor output impedance and also a somewhat poor capacitance load possabilities. ... he he 😉
and the good cables burning in?
I'm sorry, read my posts and also the one above.
Stay tuned. I will have highly interresting stuff for you before spring time bings me to other things. (Changing bad 351 V8( engine in the american muscle environment of mine. Stay tuned 🙂)
Hello again folks
I say this because of my experience. OK I'm not a person that anyone have high regards in here (I'm not very well known) but I can hear difference in two different manufactures of OP's in the same circuit. Testfigures around + -0.2 dB frequency response and + - 0.2dB amplification. That I thought was impossible before my latest findings. (testing a DAC very troughly) Testsignals and FFT shows no dissimilarities though. So I can't back it up with figures.
So, I'm a bit contradictory in my coments in this thead , Am I?
I also did some other tests recently. Only to myself and not blind ones, but just the descent ones from an old (grumpy) technician .. to the same old man ... myself 🙂
One of them was with one capacitor of a special manufaturer (that some people believe sound "harch" and someone found very good) with ... no other capacitor at all (bypassed).
... I couldn't hear a difference at all, I'm sorry for that. Would I then hear the difference with another capacitor, I mean a paper in oil type ? Maybe .. if it's one of those (coloroation) "motorcaps", "paper in oil", or this or that one, I don't know.
Are you following me or am I just stupid to not believe in all I hear (not audio but "hearing" in the forums of the web .. )
I have also discovered something even more interresting lately.
Me and my sensitivity of hearing is (me myself, in this time in life, 47 years of age) very sensitive to distortion of any kind.
I have, on my DAC project, managed to lower the OP's THD from -87 dB and -92 to 95dB THD with a bit little less amplification factor. (one volt RMS instead of 2V)
That was a mighty improvement. I have an ongoing thread about my modded DAC with the old TDA1541A (my "welcome to the world" project of DAC's and D/A circuits ), I must say I have learned a lot along the way. For the moment I'm in "PAR" with my OP vs Tubed CCDA discrete amplifier.
Yes, at first I thought the discreete tubeamp was better but when I tried to give the red carpet to the OP as well, I was not that sure. But shouldn't the discrete amplifier allways out compete the OP's? I would have loved it with all my efforts lately, but I'm not sure anymore ....
Building a PCB for switchable testing
So I'm building a PCB to do seamlessly switchings between them two. Now that they have very near figures around THD, frequency responce and amplitude, an A/B test reveals ... very little. And from the beginning I really wanted to have the CCDA discrete tubestage to be the clear winner, It isn't but they are very close and sound different in there carachters.
So, when it comes to the bare bones .. OP amplifiers is actually really well behaving... I'm sorry if that wasn't something you wanted to hear. 🙂
Then this thread about burning in things. Partically the cables?
I have tried the cheap ones and the expensive ones. I have also built my own made cables (because I can, and also have full acces to all the best cables at my work).
In a proper built preamp, which I am talking about in this very lengthy post, it doesnt measure or sound any different at all if you keep them short, less then 1.5 meters.
But then, again often mentioned, if you have a long cable, a cheap one (signature is high capacistance)
you will hear a big difference. Particarly after an SRPP tubestage with somewhat poor output impedance and also a somewhat poor capacitance load possabilities. ... he he 😉
and the good cables burning in?
I'm sorry, read my posts and also the one above.
Stay tuned. I will have highly interresting stuff for you before spring time bings me to other things. (Changing bad 351 V8( engine in the american muscle environment of mine. Stay tuned 🙂)
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