hi,
i've finished mine a couple days ago (well, except for the enclosure). initial impressions are very positive.
i went with a 9.4uF specimen of the sal-rpm for C35; also using 1uF at C34. would it be worth it to sub out a 4.7uF wima polyester for the sal-rpm? i have the 4.7uF EEUFC1H4R7 on hand too.
thanks,
-matt
i've finished mine a couple days ago (well, except for the enclosure). initial impressions are very positive.
i went with a 9.4uF specimen of the sal-rpm for C35; also using 1uF at C34. would it be worth it to sub out a 4.7uF wima polyester for the sal-rpm? i have the 4.7uF EEUFC1H4R7 on hand too.
thanks,
-matt
Attachments
I was using an older 8V EI-transformer I had on hand... generously overspecced.
Any 9V 10VA print transformer should do the trick. But let's try not to pollute the DAC thread with Salas shunts...😉
You could but I haven't directly compared my V3 SAL-RPM with the Wima versions so I can not give a guarantee it will perform a tiny tad better. It could just be that the DAC performs better with 10 µF SAL RPM than with Wima MKS 4.7 µF. You could try and test that. If the board was heated a few times already I would leave it like it is now.
BTW I like your build. Nice soldering with care for details. I know I will be laughed at but I solder the Wima output filter caps "direction" sensitive so one with text at the front and the other with text to the other side.
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SB V3 with battery powered JG buffler/filter
I finally put the JG buffler/filter in one of my SB V3 dac. My impression are very positive and delight. The music give me a more relaxing and three dimensional presentation.
I have tried several type of cap for c35, the one that pair with the JG buffler/filter with the Wima 4.7uF. c17 with the 1uF MLCC, 470uF for the c22.
The other board build base on the BOM with SAL caps. later I changed the c17 with 1uF MLCC, 470uF for c22 and c5,c7,c19 & c20 with 1uF MLCC. These 4 caps give me very subtle change so I decide not swarp these cap on the other board.
Here are pics from my build:
I finally put the JG buffler/filter in one of my SB V3 dac. My impression are very positive and delight. The music give me a more relaxing and three dimensional presentation.
I have tried several type of cap for c35, the one that pair with the JG buffler/filter with the Wima 4.7uF. c17 with the 1uF MLCC, 470uF for the c22.
The other board build base on the BOM with SAL caps. later I changed the c17 with 1uF MLCC, 470uF for c22 and c5,c7,c19 & c20 with 1uF MLCC. These 4 caps give me very subtle change so I decide not swarp these cap on the other board.
Here are pics from my build:
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JP,
I won't laugh at you because I've also found that some caps can be slightly directional. The theory that I like for this effect is that one electrode is more exposed to the external environment and is more likely to pick up noise. Orienting that electrode so that it is connected to ground could slightly improve the noise of the design. One can check for this effect by connecting the capacitor to the input of an oscilloscope. One orientation will pick up more noise when one touches the capacitor or moves it close to an AC line cord or a transformer. Have you determined which orientation is lower noise for the Wima output caps?
---Gary
Don't want to hi-jack the thread, but several MyRef FE builders installed sockets at key positions because both caps and some resistors had clear differences due to orientation. None of us had any idea how significant that would be in the tuning process. Of course the sockets were removed eventually. If interested, LOOK HERE
i knew there was something i forgot!
with regard to soldering, i've found a method that works well for me. i do not tin the pads beforehand; i carry a small amount on the tip and tack down one end, add some flux to the other, and then finish the part. if i find the initial tack isn't good enough i add more flux (and maybe solder) to that side and reflow for a nice taper. i think pre-tinning one side leaves potential for uneven part placement, since you have to move / align the part through the molten solder; and, it can potentially require more heating of the part. quickly removing the iron helps prevent any stray "solder tails" from occurring during the cooling process. i cheat a bit for the es9023/wm8804 and xpresso crystal. a small sliver of electrical tape is placed over the part and the part is aligned to the pads as well as i can see. i then user a jewler's loupe to ensure the best alignment possible. the stretch of the electrical tape allows rearranging the IC a bit (versus say, kapton tape, which has no stretch at all). for the capacitors, i used to mess with a third hand and various stacks of index cards to align the part straight on the pcb. but for this i just held the PCB and part in one hand and tacked down a single lead with the other. it worked well here. ymmv of course.
i will leave C35 as-is unless someone offers more evidence otherwise 🙂
-matt
DAC Shootout
Hi all,
I have two versions of the Subbu V3 and comparing both with my TDA1543 NOS Dac. You can see all three competitors below. As you can tell this is my first SMD project.
The third photo is my first Subbu with the GB parts. SAL-RPM 10uf for C35, a 1uf X7R for C34, and C31 not populated. I prefer this over the NOS. There is more detail in the midrange and the bass is slightly more recessed yet deeper and more detailed. It is more relaxed than the NOS.
The fourth photo is my latest Subbu. It has only 10 hours, but is already my favorite. The midrange is more detailed still, especially vocals. The bass seems slightly more recessed, but it may be because the midrange is more smooth and detailed. The difference is Wima 1uf for C32, 1uf X7R for both C31 and C34, as recommended by Jean Paul.
To go off topic, I experimented with use of my DCB1. I used it as buffer both before and after the volume control, and then removed it altogether. My favorite setup is the Subbu-VC-B1-Amps.
Thanks to Subbu and Jean Paul. My ears are very happy. I have a case on order too.
I'm ready to mod the first Subbu Dac. Any recommendations on what to try? Thanks everyone.
Cheers.
Hi all,
I have two versions of the Subbu V3 and comparing both with my TDA1543 NOS Dac. You can see all three competitors below. As you can tell this is my first SMD project.
The third photo is my first Subbu with the GB parts. SAL-RPM 10uf for C35, a 1uf X7R for C34, and C31 not populated. I prefer this over the NOS. There is more detail in the midrange and the bass is slightly more recessed yet deeper and more detailed. It is more relaxed than the NOS.
The fourth photo is my latest Subbu. It has only 10 hours, but is already my favorite. The midrange is more detailed still, especially vocals. The bass seems slightly more recessed, but it may be because the midrange is more smooth and detailed. The difference is Wima 1uf for C32, 1uf X7R for both C31 and C34, as recommended by Jean Paul.
To go off topic, I experimented with use of my DCB1. I used it as buffer both before and after the volume control, and then removed it altogether. My favorite setup is the Subbu-VC-B1-Amps.
Thanks to Subbu and Jean Paul. My ears are very happy. I have a case on order too.
I'm ready to mod the first Subbu Dac. Any recommendations on what to try? Thanks everyone.
Cheers.
Attachments
Grounded layout picture requests by JP
I wired a single 22awg strand wire from the bottom of the aluminum angle that for the RCA jacks then bridge to the other aluminum angle that hold for the IEC power entry. One of the bolt/nut of the IEC tight down the wire eyelet then solder that wire to the IEC ground pin. Since this is for my own use and I know it 's not up to the code but I do have the intention to play safe first.
Here are pics for the ground layout on my own build.
I wired a single 22awg strand wire from the bottom of the aluminum angle that for the RCA jacks then bridge to the other aluminum angle that hold for the IEC power entry. One of the bolt/nut of the IEC tight down the wire eyelet then solder that wire to the IEC ground pin. Since this is for my own use and I know it 's not up to the code but I do have the intention to play safe first.
Here are pics for the ground layout on my own build.
Attachments
OK, better than the NOS ? That's nice as NOS is sounding very relaxed generally. I love TDA1541A in a good setup but left the TDA1543 years ago. It's nice sounding but I doubt a little that what I hear is the recording or the DAC adding a nice sauce 😉 Some know exactly how to make it sing and that is good but at the time ES9022 was introduced I thought that one possibly offered more.
Same over here, thanks to GaryB I experimented again with values and types etc. We learned from the V2.6 and I simply used the same values etc on the V3 and after some changes I was satisfied. However , Wima 1uf for C32, 1uf X7R for both C31 and C34 seems a very good cocktail for the Vneg. I would encourage to use 470 µF Panasonic SEPC for C22.
If I read correctly your latest V3 sounds best and thus way better than the NOS DAC ?
Same setup here and same results so :
Source -> Subbu V3 -> DCB1 Mezmerize with volume control -> Power Amps.
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Now what's this talk about different caps for Vneg ?
Well, these are the filter capacitors that filter out spurious noise etc. from the internal charge pump that creates the necessary negative power supply for the output stage of the ES9023. The chip has an internal oscillator called a charge pump that creates a negative voltage. This was done to have happy customers as the chip now only needs 1 PSU instead of 2 so it is cheaper to implement. The necessary caps are comparable with buffer capacitors in a conventional power supply. Difference is that the charge pump runs on a high frequency and so small caps are enough for filtering and cap quality does make a difference here.
For those that would like to try this "Wima 1uf for C32, 1uf X7R for both C31 and C34" setup for Vneg (don't do it if you had difficulties building the DAC). You will need a 1 µF 0603 X7R as in the BOM, a 1 µF 50 V X7R 1210 and a Wima MKS2 1 µF 2.5 mm pitch...
This is the Wima that fits exactly on the PCB, it has 2.5 mm pitch and is far enough from the XO because of its smaller size compared to 5 mm models. Bonus is that you don't have to fiddle around with too wide lead wires.
MKS0B041000F00KSSD WIMA | Mouser
Probably these are the last % performance that can be squeezed out of the DAC. Or will there be even more significant improvements ? To my surprise no one used the pads for soldering shields yet. Those were added but never tested. The thought was: better include them and try out later as cost was nil to nothing.
Well, these are the filter capacitors that filter out spurious noise etc. from the internal charge pump that creates the necessary negative power supply for the output stage of the ES9023. The chip has an internal oscillator called a charge pump that creates a negative voltage. This was done to have happy customers as the chip now only needs 1 PSU instead of 2 so it is cheaper to implement. The necessary caps are comparable with buffer capacitors in a conventional power supply. Difference is that the charge pump runs on a high frequency and so small caps are enough for filtering and cap quality does make a difference here.
For those that would like to try this "Wima 1uf for C32, 1uf X7R for both C31 and C34" setup for Vneg (don't do it if you had difficulties building the DAC). You will need a 1 µF 0603 X7R as in the BOM, a 1 µF 50 V X7R 1210 and a Wima MKS2 1 µF 2.5 mm pitch...
This is the Wima that fits exactly on the PCB, it has 2.5 mm pitch and is far enough from the XO because of its smaller size compared to 5 mm models. Bonus is that you don't have to fiddle around with too wide lead wires.
MKS0B041000F00KSSD WIMA | Mouser
Probably these are the last % performance that can be squeezed out of the DAC. Or will there be even more significant improvements ? To my surprise no one used the pads for soldering shields yet. Those were added but never tested. The thought was: better include them and try out later as cost was nil to nothing.
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Possible but I only give a hint what to use. Check local distributors for this cap. It is a Wima MKS2 1 µF 50 V with 2.5 mm pitch. It must be small.
Herr Freeman, do I see correctly that this is the Peter Daniel NOS DAC ?? A very nice sounding DAC, I also had one.
Herr Freeman, do I see correctly that this is the Peter Daniel NOS DAC ?? A very nice sounding DAC, I also had one.
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For those of you having trouble getting your hands on the 1uf MKS2 caps with 2.5mm lead spacing that JP likes, be aware that there are more choices. The board supports 2.5mm or 5mm lead spacing. I used 4.7uf MKS2 caps with 5mm spacing and like the result quite a bit. I don't think that JP tried the 4.7uf part that I liked and I know that I haven't tried the 1uf part that JP suggested. I think it's up to the experimenters out there to try different values (1uf vs. 1.5uf vs. 2.2uf vs. 3.3uf vs. 4.7uf) and tell us if they hear a difference. Both JP and I agree that a 10uf part is already too much. As of Feb 9, 2014, Mouser has the 1uf, 1.5uf, 2.2uf, 3.3uf, and 4.7uf available in the 5mm spacing. 1uf is the largest capacitor available with 2.5mm lead spacing and Mouser says those will be back in stock in 1 week. I suspect that JP likes the 2.5mm part because he thinks the smaller spacing leads to lower parasitic inductance which is a good thing for this application. But the datasheets don't support that. If you compare the data sheets for the 2.5mm parts vs. the 5mm parts
http://www.wima.com/EN/WIMA_MKS_02.pdf
vs.
http://www.wima.com/EN/WIMA_MKS_2.pdf
you'll see that the 1uf 5mm part is actually slightly better than the 1uf 2.5mm part. But the layout of the 2.5mm part on the board is slightly better. So both probably are fine.
---Gary
p.s. JP - if you really want to drive people crazy you'll tell them which orientation of the MKS capacitor sounds better 😉 .
Hi Jean-Paul,
Yes it is. I love my NOS, however the Subbu to my ears is more natural, detailed and refined. I prefer my first Subbu by a small margin but second build is much preferable, and it has only about 15 hours of break-in.
I think there were only 2 of the 2.5mm wima mks2 1uf caps in stock at mouser when I ordered. I fully recommend that everyone track one down. Thanks for the advice Jean-Paul. Cheers!
Coincidence has it that I also own an Audiosector DAC as the predecessor of the Subbu-DAC... and likewise it gets beaten by the latter.
Hate to admit it because I really like the NOS DAC (latest gen. with the Bobken reg), but the Subbu/JP-DAC simply has the better treble
region sounding very close to analogue. The other thing I really like about the ES9023 in this implementation is its openess: it throws a
huge soundstage where I can follow everything with ease... it's just there.
I am listening to headphones only and exclusively using various tube amps and 'The Wire', and the JP-DAC (Jeez guys, don't you have a
name a bit more handy...? 😉) manages it to fit a 10m stage of a classical recording into my head... so to speak. Convincing.
The only thing that bugs me now is that I have to build a really nice case for the JP-DAC to match my Peter Daniel NOS 😛
Hate to admit it because I really like the NOS DAC (latest gen. with the Bobken reg), but the Subbu/JP-DAC simply has the better treble
region sounding very close to analogue. The other thing I really like about the ES9023 in this implementation is its openess: it throws a
huge soundstage where I can follow everything with ease... it's just there.
I am listening to headphones only and exclusively using various tube amps and 'The Wire', and the JP-DAC (Jeez guys, don't you have a
name a bit more handy...? 😉) manages it to fit a 10m stage of a classical recording into my head... so to speak. Convincing.
The only thing that bugs me now is that I have to build a really nice case for the JP-DAC to match my Peter Daniel NOS 😛
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None of my business, but do you just prefer phones over speakers? I know some do. I'm getting some very good 3D/360 room response with the V3.
Wow, Stixx. That is the finest case I've ever seen. I was also thinking about the NOS upgrade but will now concentrate on Subbu tweaks. I liked the NOS concept and would not have minded if it triumphed in my listening sessions. I get too emotionally attached to gear. Plus I had a lot invested in BG caps and caddocks. The NOS plus shigaclone was a huge step forward for me. But now Subbu is king. I'm wondering how it compares to the other top dacs.