I'm still a little confused as to your port dimensions, but assuming a 2"x4" hole in 3/4" material, your box sims pretty well. A bit bigger than I would use, but designs philosophy is designs philosophy. The driver is obviously in the wrong place, but a handful of polyfill will pretty much mask that. Your F3 is ~60Hz and F10 in the 40's. You need some BSC, so push them up against the wall and give another listen.
Bob
Bob
I realize what was stated up there mixes the test build that is with
some other sims for 167e and also I think a Jordan.
What I'm playing with is the 4.75 x 23 x 8 measure-- see above for the
exact measures.
So you are saying that the sim of that box with the 2x4 test port should sim well.
As things progress I'm going to do some test tones and maybe jack the volume a bit to check the port action. Normal volume for me is pretty low.
some other sims for 167e and also I think a Jordan.
What I'm playing with is the 4.75 x 23 x 8 measure-- see above for the
exact measures.
So you are saying that the sim of that box with the 2x4 test port should sim well.
As things progress I'm going to do some test tones and maybe jack the volume a bit to check the port action. Normal volume for me is pretty low.
Hmm, the driver location and port length isn't the same as we either discussed or what you said they were, i.e. driver down ~7.91" i.d. and 3.5" vent length.
Regardless, as BB noted, placing them up against a wall and preferably in a corner will reduce/eliminate the need for BSC if the cab has enough damping, but IIRC you prefer the resonant, somewhat hollow sound of an un-damped box, so probably only corner loading will get the desired result WRT no BSC, though without damping the walls, floor around it will cause other potentially distracting reflections.
Otherwise, out in the room positioning requires tuning the cab high with a baffle thickness port which kills any LF, leaving only a prosound-like mid-bass 'bass' thump.
GM
Regardless, as BB noted, placing them up against a wall and preferably in a corner will reduce/eliminate the need for BSC if the cab has enough damping, but IIRC you prefer the resonant, somewhat hollow sound of an un-damped box, so probably only corner loading will get the desired result WRT no BSC, though without damping the walls, floor around it will cause other potentially distracting reflections.
Otherwise, out in the room positioning requires tuning the cab high with a baffle thickness port which kills any LF, leaving only a prosound-like mid-bass 'bass' thump.
GM
I will recheck all the measures and do them in both cm and inches
as a cross check.
I can try loading up the box cavity with fiberfill/pillow stuffing but I never did like that much. It kills string instruments.
Final measures including port length currently installed to follow.
My first router is waiting for some action. I intend to move the 167e to
a larger cabinet but then elevate the cab with port out the bottom. The end result will hopefully be ear position someplace in between.
I have some starter pieces which panel length and width is 12 in x 36 in. Can you sim that and give the (wink wink) CSA?
😉
This may be the year I pop for MJK's Mathcad program. But I have my hand out for tips because I wasn't very successful using the Mathcad Explorer with the sample (unrelated) prog. he gave me to try. IOW more hand-holding than anybody really wants to do. I get a few extra bucks as an election poll worker. And it's not next year yet.
as a cross check.
I can try loading up the box cavity with fiberfill/pillow stuffing but I never did like that much. It kills string instruments.
Final measures including port length currently installed to follow.
My first router is waiting for some action. I intend to move the 167e to
a larger cabinet but then elevate the cab with port out the bottom. The end result will hopefully be ear position someplace in between.
I have some starter pieces which panel length and width is 12 in x 36 in. Can you sim that and give the (wink wink) CSA?
😉
This may be the year I pop for MJK's Mathcad program. But I have my hand out for tips because I wasn't very successful using the Mathcad Explorer with the sample (unrelated) prog. he gave me to try. IOW more hand-holding than anybody really wants to do. I get a few extra bucks as an election poll worker. And it's not next year yet.
I re-measured everything for consistency this afternoon.
This test box for the 167e is as follows:
Length (all dimensions internal) 23.75 in/ 650 mm or 65cm
Width 10.25 in/264 mm
Depth 4 5/8 in/ 120 mm
Port 2 in diameter internal
length 5 1/8 in. (I didn't have a hook on the end of my meter stick)
Driver Center 8 3/8 from top / 210 mm.
That's what's in there. I have more PVC to make a shorter port. Internal treatments leave something to be desired-- not very scientific.
But I have the back screwed on so as to make opening and tweaking relatively painless.
This test box for the 167e is as follows:
Length (all dimensions internal) 23.75 in/ 650 mm or 65cm
Width 10.25 in/264 mm
Depth 4 5/8 in/ 120 mm
Port 2 in diameter internal
length 5 1/8 in. (I didn't have a hook on the end of my meter stick)
Driver Center 8 3/8 from top / 210 mm.
That's what's in there. I have more PVC to make a shorter port. Internal treatments leave something to be desired-- not very scientific.
But I have the back screwed on so as to make opening and tweaking relatively painless.
loninappleton said:
You're a bit late, for a variety of reasons he's quit offering them AFAIK.
Well, assuming 3/4" thickness, then length = 36 - 1.5 = 34.5" and CSA = 12 - 1.5 = 10.5*12 = 126"^2. This makes zdriver = 14.43". zport = 3" dia. x 1.5" long for low 40's tuning, so based on these assumptions (no damping) it's severely under-damped due to excessive Vb:
GM
Attachments
GM said:
Well it's not a BIB. I have one of those going in this setup too.
I did some test listening. If you remember The Firesign Theater, you remember Gas Music From Jupiter. There's an electronica show on and they were playing Red Shift. The new setup was impressive even with the 5 incher port. But I can shorten that up. You mentioned 3.91 in which is like 3 15/16. Maybe use metric?
Regards the Mathcad and stuff, there should be some breakthrough for a calculator some time. Who knows?
I read through that first post and will draw out the measures on a panel at some point-- maybe just get a fresh one.
A question on this temp setup:
Would permanently attaching the back give some port action?
For all that, the knuckle test on the sides doesn't sound hollow
or cardboardy. Still, if I get get in through the speaker cutout to adjust things and swap out the bottom for a different port size, I'm willing to
permanently attach the back.
I put some weatherstrip on the back edges to get a seal but that might have been a bad move.
Here again, I never play much that is loud so it's hard for me to figure that there is that much internal pressure or absorption of LF.
Would permanently attaching the back give some port action?
For all that, the knuckle test on the sides doesn't sound hollow
or cardboardy. Still, if I get get in through the speaker cutout to adjust things and swap out the bottom for a different port size, I'm willing to
permanently attach the back.
I put some weatherstrip on the back edges to get a seal but that might have been a bad move.
Here again, I never play much that is loud so it's hard for me to figure that there is that much internal pressure or absorption of LF.
Well, all that matters is that the box only have one 'leak', the vent, so how you do it is up to you. If you want to check vent action, then use a computer tone generator to find the cab's actual Fb, which will be when the driver is barely moving at most and all the output is from the vent. If there's any leaks the Fb will be somewhat higher than predicted.
FWIW, for removable panels I use industrial Nema 5-12 rated neoprene gasketing for electrical distribution equipment access panels, doors, etc. as it was the cheapest of the industrial ones I tried that could withstand repeated re-seals, especially ones where the mounting hardware went through it. It should be available at a local electrical distributor or on-line at Grainger's or similar.
GM
FWIW, for removable panels I use industrial Nema 5-12 rated neoprene gasketing for electrical distribution equipment access panels, doors, etc. as it was the cheapest of the industrial ones I tried that could withstand repeated re-seals, especially ones where the mounting hardware went through it. It should be available at a local electrical distributor or on-line at Grainger's or similar.
GM
GM said:
If the gasketing isn't a problem just for lack of a wood to wood seal then the stuff I used should work. I took it off though. I checked the box which I know has some high spots. With a shop full of tools
I suppose I could bend it to my will and be able to dry fit everything and screw or clamp. With the insulation off and using some 1/8 in
insulation just to get all sides level, I buttoned it back up and looked in the port to see if I could see any light.
If there is a problem and it's not just me I think the box is ok.
I also changed the port length to 3 in just to see if that changed anything.
To use test tones I have to move the thing onto a different setup.
I'll have to review port tuning which I know nothing about. Over time I have built from plans here so not very good at diagnostics.
I have some tones in mp3 format but when the burn to disk was made no frequencies on the files are known-- just track one track 2 etc. I know that the first 3 tones are inaudible on the FE127e.
If the tones are in 10Hz increments, sound kicks in at the fourth one. I do not know where there's a better set. However one online source I looked up cautioned about using their's and blowing my motherboard. So I'd rather control it using a cd.
There is a good gasket place in town. They made me some speaker gaskets when I assembled a line array. That place likely has the neoprene stuff you mentioned.
Sounds like it's in the 40s where it should be with the long vent.
FWIW I've used this one with no problems in Win95 thru XP Pro: http://www.marchandelec.com/fg.html
BTW, pink noise is better than white for breaking in drivers.
GM
FWIW I've used this one with no problems in Win95 thru XP Pro: http://www.marchandelec.com/fg.html
BTW, pink noise is better than white for breaking in drivers.
GM
GM said:
As always, much appreciated.
This may be a good project for New Year's Day. I'll have to wrestle with a new setup to get it going. The 167e is on the boom box. it may be weird but the ol' blaster (now having several failed transports)
gives excellent 3 watt sound into my bib and mltl set up.
This afternoon, I'm going to review my David Weems and Ray Alden but unless the procedure is pretty simple I'm liable to get lost quickly.
It cannot be considered progress
It cannot be considered progress but I got out my spec sheet, Weems,
a hand calculator, google concersion sites and WinISD.
If, as I figured out after all the back and forth, the volume is .65 cu ft.
Taking that to Weems gives somewhere between 5 3/8 and 3in for a 2 in ID port tube. It looks like I could settle on 4 in length.
I am a sad sack when it comes to doing math of any sort.
Interestingly, The sample build from the Fostex sheet closely resembles the volume/shape given in WinISD.
But this has to be re-inventing the wheel.
A question arises from this though:
Could there be some cancellation effect going on because the
depth of 4 5/8 is so shallow? Keeping in mind I'm using scraps and intend to rebuild, could this be the cause of little dynamics ("big sound") coming from a 6 in speaker?
It cannot be considered progress but I got out my spec sheet, Weems,
a hand calculator, google concersion sites and WinISD.
If, as I figured out after all the back and forth, the volume is .65 cu ft.
Taking that to Weems gives somewhere between 5 3/8 and 3in for a 2 in ID port tube. It looks like I could settle on 4 in length.
I am a sad sack when it comes to doing math of any sort.
Interestingly, The sample build from the Fostex sheet closely resembles the volume/shape given in WinISD.
But this has to be re-inventing the wheel.
A question arises from this though:
Could there be some cancellation effect going on because the
depth of 4 5/8 is so shallow? Keeping in mind I'm using scraps and intend to rebuild, could this be the cause of little dynamics ("big sound") coming from a 6 in speaker?
Something handy from Ray Alden's book posted below.
It's a free calculator that does multiple conversions and sits on your
pc desktop so you don't have to fiddle with an online conversion calculator-- and it's free of course.
http://www.geocities.com/f4ier/fct.htm
It's a free calculator that does multiple conversions and sits on your
pc desktop so you don't have to fiddle with an online conversion calculator-- and it's free of course.
http://www.geocities.com/f4ier/fct.htm
GM said:
I installed the marchadelec tone generator.
Can't see how to start it up. It says, press 'run' which should be
pretty easy to find.
The diagnostics for sound card and such all say ok.
Where's 'run'?
I see all the sliders but nothing to start it. An example of simple not always being best.
🙄
The board from Biostar has onboard sound AC'7.
I don't see where it says 'press 'run''. It just says to run it, IOW all you do is use your mouse to move the sliders (or type a specific value in and hit 'return' ('enter') on your keyboard), so input/slide the 'frequency' to some value high enough to ensure it's not below the box tuning to get started, say 80 Hz, then adjust output level using one (or both if stereo) of the 'amplitude' sliders. If the speaker(s) otherwise make sound from the computer, then it should with the FG. If not, then look in 'file/list sound playback devices' as it should tell you if your sound card is compatible. For testing to find Fb, I recommend using the 'sine' wave.
GM
GM
I'll give it one more try before going back to tones on cd...
Start program
Turn on RS SA155
Give the sliders some amplitude/volume
press return
Success.
Without Father and Son knowledge, I'd be lost.
Would it be so hard for them to put a little text on it that says
press return to start?
BTW, Return does not toggle the sound off-- just on.
Start program
Turn on RS SA155
Give the sliders some amplitude/volume
press return
Success.
Without Father and Son knowledge, I'd be lost.
Would it be so hard for them to put a little text on it that says
press return to start?
BTW, Return does not toggle the sound off-- just on.
news from nowhere
Well maybe I'm not really getting nowhere but I'm pretty confused.
I wasn't getting significant throughput (I guess) from the marchand prog.
so I returned to my tone cd.
With the tone cd going I can hear audible down to the first
tone-- one of 30 I think. Godzilla recommened this download so maybe he remembers where it came from.
These tones really get the cones moving on both.
I noticed some noise-- call it motor noise-- in the FE127e I have on the other side. No noise coming from the 167e.
Both cones are really going at these low frequencies. BUT the 127e
was pushing a lot more air out the port. I did this by feel.
Using this caping method, I can hear the frequency lose the low part when covered. This procedure does very little on the 167e test box-- and there is a lot *less* air movement at the port. True with changing out various pvc port length for comparison, the seal might not be the best. Still for such a difference in size of motor and driver the resault is confusing. Relative size to motor for the 127e box
as opposed to the size to motor for the 167e would lead me to think that there's be more air pressure out the vent.
Still, it's a fun procedure to do. But I'm looking for some additional performance out of the newer and larger 167e.
Well maybe I'm not really getting nowhere but I'm pretty confused.
I wasn't getting significant throughput (I guess) from the marchand prog.
so I returned to my tone cd.
With the tone cd going I can hear audible down to the first
tone-- one of 30 I think. Godzilla recommened this download so maybe he remembers where it came from.
These tones really get the cones moving on both.
I noticed some noise-- call it motor noise-- in the FE127e I have on the other side. No noise coming from the 167e.
Both cones are really going at these low frequencies. BUT the 127e
was pushing a lot more air out the port. I did this by feel.
Using this caping method, I can hear the frequency lose the low part when covered. This procedure does very little on the 167e test box-- and there is a lot *less* air movement at the port. True with changing out various pvc port length for comparison, the seal might not be the best. Still for such a difference in size of motor and driver the resault is confusing. Relative size to motor for the 127e box
as opposed to the size to motor for the 167e would lead me to think that there's be more air pressure out the vent.
Still, it's a fun procedure to do. But I'm looking for some additional performance out of the newer and larger 167e.
Re: It cannot be considered progress
Hmm, I've never had to press 'return' to use the sliders, just move them to the right to increase the volume out of each channel. AFAIK you only have to hit 'return' if inputting a specific value. Of course if you initially move the amplitude sliders before the frequency one, then the speakers are trying to reproduce 1 Hz, which obviously means you won't hear anything until there's enough power to bottom out the driver on over excursion. That, or the VC heats up until it drags the gap to self immolation.
Yeah, apparently folks that have DL'd/used it don't care enough about having a mute button it, I don't. That, or Marchand has decided to leave it as is now that they have hand held ones for sale, which I don't recall them having back when I first DL'd it in 2/97 or the current version in 12/05, but then my memory isn't what it once was.
GM
Hmm, I've never had to press 'return' to use the sliders, just move them to the right to increase the volume out of each channel. AFAIK you only have to hit 'return' if inputting a specific value. Of course if you initially move the amplitude sliders before the frequency one, then the speakers are trying to reproduce 1 Hz, which obviously means you won't hear anything until there's enough power to bottom out the driver on over excursion. That, or the VC heats up until it drags the gap to self immolation.
Yeah, apparently folks that have DL'd/used it don't care enough about having a mute button it, I don't. That, or Marchand has decided to leave it as is now that they have hand held ones for sale, which I don't recall them having back when I first DL'd it in 2/97 or the current version in 12/05, but then my memory isn't what it once was.
GM
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