The "truth" here is individual to the perceiver. There is more than the sound from the speaker involved.
No there is not.
That's the beauty of these tests, it's not subjective.
Either people can spot the differences, or they can't.
Also, the whole idea of Hi-Fi, as ''High-Fidelity'' is extremely simple: an audio reproduction system that can give the illusion music (sounds) are real (live).
Now, some derivations to the ''pleasing to the ears'' kind of quest happened over the time, and I'm not at all interested in that.
Musicians are doing the music. Not audiophiles.
Well, listening to music over what is basically the extended telephone band with 48db filters is a pretty weird effect, overpowering everything else. Self-defyingly meaningless and obviously silly, which I guess is the whole point of this attention-grabbing prank. Lesson learned, unsubscribed. Enjoy your soap box.
Ok Jon, sorry, but i call bullshite.
I spend alot of time TRYING to make different drivers sound the same.
With exacting measurements, disciplines, and extraordinary processing.
Don't try to kid me for a second, that we can't hear differences as gross as you describe.
And believe me, i pooh pooh 98% of all the audiophool optimization / what matters, crap I read...... but it simply ain't easy to get things to sound the same !
Honestly, and no offense, but I have to wonder if you even did the tests you describe....
HAHA!
Ok, wow...
😱
That thread is getting more and more interesting.
Well I really did that test. Organized it and was even a participant.
But the beauty of it: don't take my word for it! DO THE SAME. Will be happy to give you all the info needed to replicate the same test, or just do it your way...
Cannot be simplier:
360-7200hz bandwith, bandpassed 48/oct slopes butterworth.
EQ-corrected and SPL matched with calibrated mic.
Switch box. Rotative plate with an enclosure.
Decent sound room with low noise floor. Blackened security goggles.
Using pretty much any drivers that can do the bandwith with the EQ corrections.
What else? DONUTS for participants, don't forget the donuts, I had complaints (for real) because people were hungry waiting for their turn.
But seriously guys, If you think I made that up, you're downright delusional. No offense, but, hey. Gimme a break, please.
I basically told him that back in post#17 when he asked me to explain what went wrong, and he completely ignored the issue.
Mark, you strike me as a smart guy.
It's very important to understand ONE thing. One single thing.
We are talking about an identification blind test. Which means, it's not an evaluation, it's not subjective, it's only a question of ''Are you able to spot A from B.''
ABX procedure is pretty straightforward.
I make you listen a music excerpt on driver ''A'', then the same excerpt on driver ''B''. Then ''X'' -which can be either A or B- is presented to you, with the very same music excerpt.
You simply say which from A or B you think that last ''X'' really is.
That's it. That's round 1.
Then round 2 follows, on a different music excerpt.
Then round 3 follows, and so on, up to 20 rounds per session if the results are unconclusive (which means there is no failure yet). When there is too much failure or the participant clearly ''guess'', the session is stopped.
Another session can be done with another pair of drivers, but usually you let the participant get some rest, since it's a bit draining. We want to avoid any fatigue, in these kind of test.
Now. When you say that you fail to make it sound the same... It was based on what? Blindtesting as described above of simply subjective evaluation?
You are both missing the point entirely.
The point is: even truncated 360-7200hz, the differences were supposed to be OBVIOUS, between a compression driver and a woofer.
48db/octave crossovers are completely irrelevant here. Completely irrelevant. I could have taken my DEQX to make 300db slopes or some passive components to make it 6db/oct...
The only thing important to understand here is, instead of having VERY OBVIOUS differences, spotted by most if not all participants, we got nothing. Nada. NO participant were able to spot any of the drivers tested.
So, the conclusions is: within 360-7200hz, a single driver can easily mimic another one once EQ and SPL matched.
That's it.
You don't believe that? You don't even believe I did that test for real (!?)
Fine.
Now the burden of proof is on your driveway. Whether you like it or not.
Also, I'd like to point out something (again):
I did NOT organize any blind test involving either sub/woofers or tweeters, for reasons mentioned in earlier page.
Therefore, I am not sure drivers working in the extremes would behave the same. Educated-guess here: sub/woofers would be as difficult to spot blindly, given they are, again, EQ/SPL matched and also that they are not making any mechanical noise or any distortion.
On the other hand, I'm not so confident about tweeters. It might be possible to spot them. I wouldnt be confident to bet my car on that, though, but it's a possibility. Especially if we would be allowed, as participant, to move the head left and right to spot them with the directivity differences.
I did NOT organize any blind test involving either sub/woofers or tweeters, for reasons mentioned in earlier page.
Therefore, I am not sure drivers working in the extremes would behave the same. Educated-guess here: sub/woofers would be as difficult to spot blindly, given they are, again, EQ/SPL matched and also that they are not making any mechanical noise or any distortion.
On the other hand, I'm not so confident about tweeters. It might be possible to spot them. I wouldnt be confident to bet my car on that, though, but it's a possibility. Especially if we would be allowed, as participant, to move the head left and right to spot them with the directivity differences.
So, the point is, your test was a complete failure? Why are you still crowing about it then?
And Edison proved that a gramophone can easily mimic a live performer. Were his tests less rigorous than yours?
Where any of your testers audio engineers of any kind? The best judge of EQ is obviously one who uses an EQ on a daily basis, in order to feed his family...
Last edited:
Some observations.
1. This test was triggered by your drive to find the best midrange. That the other test subjects couldn't tell a difference and you participated, could you tell a difference? Did you have a preference? and were you given an opportunity to consistently identify your preference?
2. What SPL was tested and at what distance were the audience? were they in a line and did the subjects choose different seats or were in the same position for all drivers in rotation?
3. What was the time interval between driver swaps?
1. This test was triggered by your drive to find the best midrange. That the other test subjects couldn't tell a difference and you participated, could you tell a difference? Did you have a preference? and were you given an opportunity to consistently identify your preference?
2. What SPL was tested and at what distance were the audience? were they in a line and did the subjects choose different seats or were in the same position for all drivers in rotation?
3. What was the time interval between driver swaps?
JonBocani,
These results are interesting! I can imagine that it is true for a single driver. I suspect though, that they will sound different when integrated with the same tweeter/crossover. You could try that as a test!
These results are interesting! I can imagine that it is true for a single driver. I suspect though, that they will sound different when integrated with the same tweeter/crossover. You could try that as a test!
To be fair, I can show a lot of my friends two completely different sounding speakers and they won't be able to tell what's what. I think to hear the difference in your tests, you'd need to have people with trained ears.
I can imagine it could be hard to hear the differences if the right material is chosen at the right SPL if the smaller drivers aren't distorting. I can also imagine some of the drivers would fall apart when it comes to instrument separation in a complex piece. I feel like that's where more expensive drivers really excel.
I definitely can believe that a majority of people can't hear the difference between the drivers though.
I can imagine it could be hard to hear the differences if the right material is chosen at the right SPL if the smaller drivers aren't distorting. I can also imagine some of the drivers would fall apart when it comes to instrument separation in a complex piece. I feel like that's where more expensive drivers really excel.
I definitely can believe that a majority of people can't hear the difference between the drivers though.
You still haven't answered the question. 'Probably' is not an answer. Instead you're just trying to be cute about it.
So once more. Have you read Toole or not?
Last edited:
And therein lies one of the major problems with this entire post. Jon wants us to believe in a result that was obtained with seriously flawed testing.
Then when I tried to confront him with established standards from a real expert, Dr. Floyd Toole, he has so far brushed that off completely.
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm certainly not accepting his results as anything meaningful. If he wants to make some major improvements in testing discipline and try again, it might be useful. Until then it isn't.
move your head from side to side, you can deduce size of the driver.
10" to 7k, JonBocani put that bottle away.
I have listened bandpass mid on my set steep xo like that and it aint sound that good. Too much stuff missing both sides
10" to 7k, JonBocani put that bottle away.
I have listened bandpass mid on my set steep xo like that and it aint sound that good. Too much stuff missing both sides
Last edited:
Given how bad music is mastered last decades, i could swear most audio engineers are deaf.
Last edited:
- Status
- Not open for further replies.