You need to go back and read Toole again. He says no such thing as you claim. You are making it up.
In fact, he says quite the opposite. While he does say that the experienced listeners are operational immediately (page 52), he makes the point that there are major differences in the ability of various people to be judges of sound quality (pages 53 and 54). Here is a direct quote:
"The results shown earlier in Figure 3.9 reveal that the trained veteran listeners distinguished themselves by having the highest performance rating by far..."
Nowhere does he say that the experienced and inexperienced point out the same things.
And that returns me to the major flaw in this entire discussion. Specifically the qualifications of the listeners, which has never been revealed. And yet we are somehow expected to accept the results as being useful and even perhaps as a basis for our own future purchases. I don't see any useful takeaway whatsoever from this thread.
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I know.
Couldnt believe it myself and I was there. Made me mad, actually,
Radian 950PB-beryllium w/short horn. Pretty easy to EQ that driver down to 360hz, but it's a very special CD indeed.
The 10'' PA was a kappalite from Eminence, again: easy to adjust.
fyi: the Radian compression driver was the biggest surprise. I mean, nobody would have guess that. Even unblinded after the rounds, you're absolutely sure there is audible differences. But once you have the blackened goggles on your head, it's not the same at all.
I assume I've missed the place on this thread where full test setup details, full test parameters and full test results are provided.
Until such a time as such full details are provided, this entire thread and any similar that fail to provide said, are worthless. I for one make zero apologies for not taking somebody's unsubstantiated word on such a subject, particularly when coupled with a self-confessed cavalier attitude toward EQ, and casual comments such as 'w/short horn', at face value. However, I look forward with great interest to reading the full details of the methodology, the considerations given to the test parameters and how they were selected, and the detailed results of the test participants with accompanying analysis. I assume these are in a paper of some description, but I don't recall seeing one.
Until such a time as such full details are provided, this entire thread and any similar that fail to provide said, are worthless. I for one make zero apologies for not taking somebody's unsubstantiated word on such a subject, particularly when coupled with a self-confessed cavalier attitude toward EQ, and casual comments such as 'w/short horn', at face value. However, I look forward with great interest to reading the full details of the methodology, the considerations given to the test parameters and how they were selected, and the detailed results of the test participants with accompanying analysis. I assume these are in a paper of some description, but I don't recall seeing one.
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P Audio 2" CD on a JBL 2385A sitting on top of a 15" bass cab.
Crossing at 800Hz. 800Hz test tone sounds different on the bass cab versus the horn. My ears at 1 metre.
Must be harmonics / distortion products ? (too close for room influence ?)
Rob.
Crossing at 800Hz. 800Hz test tone sounds different on the bass cab versus the horn. My ears at 1 metre.
Must be harmonics / distortion products ? (too close for room influence ?)
Rob.
Found some notes.
And we didn't use a miniDSP 2x4HD at all, it was a a nanoDIGI 2x8 feeding a Forssell DAC (high-end studio converter) and finally on a 50ASX2 amplifier.
So basically in regards of electronics, it was flawless. I remember now that we didnt want to take any chances because, you know, ''blablabla, all your electronics can hide the little details blablabla''... So, yeah. Forssell DAC. 4000$. Sold since.
POST #1 EDITED WITH MORE INFO
And we didn't use a miniDSP 2x4HD at all, it was a a nanoDIGI 2x8 feeding a Forssell DAC (high-end studio converter) and finally on a 50ASX2 amplifier.
So basically in regards of electronics, it was flawless. I remember now that we didnt want to take any chances because, you know, ''blablabla, all your electronics can hide the little details blablabla''... So, yeah. Forssell DAC. 4000$. Sold since.
POST #1 EDITED WITH MORE INFO
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Don't blame the FIR filters, they just did exactly what you asked them to do 😉.
Maybe put in the time to learn what you want them to do.
+1
It kills absolutely nothing.... just the FR peaks you're confusing with ''dynamics'' 😉
Updated:
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mul...audible-difference-whatsover.html#post6180923
Will post pictures as soon as I find some.
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mul...audible-difference-whatsover.html#post6180923
Will post pictures as soon as I find some.
Nothing wrong or silly with listening to an extended telephone band with steep out-of-band filters and looking for the best driver capable of that. Ask any telephone equipment manufacturer.
There are some loudspeakers with 48dB/octave (or more) filters, nothing wrong with that either.
Maybe you don't like the result of the experiment that almost any midrange will do the job? Well, try to duplicate the experiment and prove otherwise. Be careful with drivers not capable of reproducing the lower end of the spectra - high distortion will be objectionable and easy to detect.
I personally think that there should be some difference simply because of intrinsically different dispersion of different drivers. It was an ordinary room, with reflections from the walls, ceiling and floor, not an anechoic chamber. But I have to duplicate the experiment to prove that. Until then...
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Both listening distance and SPL were chosen according to pre-tests and participants preferences.
The 1.65m distance was however fixed for all participants once the pre-testing was done.
The average of 88-90db (at listening position) was the default, but few participants were more comfortable with average level up to 95db.
Also, some music excerpts were at a lower SPL, even considering peaks. But the average was 88-90db.
The logical next step would have been to conduct a similar blindtest but in stereo, with a pair of each drivers...
Problem is: it's much more complex to organize.
Also, even if you COULD spot a 4000$ pair of drivers from a 20$ one, the power response alone is not a sufficient reason to spend that much difference...
That being said, and like I mentioned in previous pages, the high-priced Voxativ are drivers able to reach 105db+ in-room, while the tiny FR10 can't.
This is a very important information. That distance is near field, so the driver dispersion is not so important.
Okay. Forssell MDAC-2, their latest dac, uses a PCM1794 dac chip (the chip came out around 2003?) followed by a discrete jfet output stage. 50ASX2 is a class-D power amp.
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I was one of the listener and humbly think I'm more than qualified having built loudspeakers for decades ranging from small monitors to line arrays, domes, ribbons, CD's etc. I understand your skepticism regarding the conclusion of the blindtest. However, I was also unable to identify any of the pairings. That is the hard reality. Same story with DAC's I'm afraid so.
Pink noise instead of sweep tones?
😉
Seriously, you can't fix the power response's effects with an EQ.
But as specified in post #1, it was nearfield 1.65m distance from the listeners and also it was far from the walls, and the walls were partially treated with 35kg/m3 density foam...
Far from being anechoic, but still a RT60 of about 350ms... Not a bathroom.
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