RHosch said:
LOL, I don't think you really wanted to post that did you? Its pretty obvious what the answer is, unless you have yogurt for brains.
In nearly 24 years of building speakers I have never found an acceptable substitute for a great ribbon. Domes come and go in my designs but I noticed that I never keep them in my system for very long whereas I always sit down for serious listening using a ribbon.
A telling fact to where my preferences lie.
I've used quite a few domes over time and the only one that I really have any affinity for is the vifa XT25 because it offers such a great sound for next to no money. I actually prefer this to the average SS 9700.
I think you may be the one with oatmeal porridge for brain...ShinOBIWAN said:
Moving mass just isn't that important for good sound quality. Motor / voicecoil engineering / piston behaviour is. You stated that
"Dome tweeters are more often than not heavier so will have higher moving mass. Hence slower transient response."
This is simply untrue. Like RHosch said, there is no direct realation between moving mass and transient response. Read his post and learn.
Ravens and Alon Speakers
The money no object Alon Exotica Grand Reference Speakers uses a whole lot of Raven tweeters.
http://www.alonbyacarian.com/index2.htm
The money no object Alon Exotica Grand Reference Speakers uses a whole lot of Raven tweeters.
http://www.alonbyacarian.com/index2.htm
Re: Esotar Tweeters vs Ravens
And i know quite a few people who would say those footsteps lead to a dead end (i can only speak wrt direct experience of the B&Ws)
You beat me to it...
The best tweeters i have yet heard are ribbons, i'm no big fan of domes in general, but it must be considered that the tweeter is just part of a much larger system -- other speakers, XO, amp(s), room, etc -- there is no best. But as a class ribbons have a lot of promise. I suspect that they are not widely used as much due to their fragility as anything else.
dave
kensetsu said:
And i know quite a few people who would say those footsteps lead to a dead end (i can only speak wrt direct experience of the B&Ws)
RHosch said:
You beat me to it...
The best tweeters i have yet heard are ribbons, i'm no big fan of domes in general, but it must be considered that the tweeter is just part of a much larger system -- other speakers, XO, amp(s), room, etc -- there is no best. But as a class ribbons have a lot of promise. I suspect that they are not widely used as much due to their fragility as anything else.
dave
Hans L said:I think you may be the one with oatmeal porridge for brain...
Moving mass just isn't that important for good sound quality. Motor / voicecoil engineering / piston behaviour is. You stated that
"Dome tweeters are more often than not heavier so will have higher moving mass. Hence slower transient response."
This is simply untrue. Like RHosch said, there is no direct realation between moving mass and transient response. Read his post and learn.
It seems your the one who recently had unsuccesful brain surgery.
Read this, I DID NOT POST:
"Dome tweeters are more often than not heavier so will have higher moving mass. Hence slower transient response."
I think if you read back you will find fdegrove posted this. I have made no assumptions as to why IMO🙂 ribbons are better than domes, so I'm perpetuating no myths here.
😱 😀
ShinOBIWAN said:
Yes, I meant to post precisely that. I was so flippant with the "so" because Frank either intentionally or unintentionally left out so much of the equation with his explanation. My "so" was intended to cause him and others to think a bit more about what role moving mass has. By itself it tells you practically nothing. I know car analogies are run into the dirt, and are generally not very useful, but in this case the point is well enough made: it's a bit akin to telling someone that your car only weighs 400lbs and is therefore "obviously" fast (oh, but you neglected to tell them that it is powered by a 12bhp 2-cycle engine...).
And as I pointed out, motor strength isn't typically high on the list of ribbon qualities. The two do balance out (motor strength and moving mass) to net a good result as is seen by the extended frequency response and typically high sensitivity, but there is always more than one way to skin a cat. Dome tweeters usually have a much higher BL, so the additional moving mass need not dictate low sensitivity or "transient response." Again, if anything it is the low inductance of ribbons that allows them to more easily play into the higher kHz range than most domes. The trade-off appears to be distortion products... the modal behavior of a very thin and very compliant ribbon of any significant length is much more complex than a dome, and due to the low stiffness the amplitudes will be much higher as well. The added mass of a dome may in fact be its greatest benefit if it prevents high-order modes from being excited to any significant amplitude.
As for the "yogurt for brains" I thank you very much for the mudslinging. I now know how to treat any future posts you may make.
RHosch said:
I think you misunderstand, that wasn't directed at you.
Rather that the whole moving mass issue between domes and ribbons is taken way out of context. I have never made any assumption which reinforces the argument for this 'myth'.
That's true, although it would likely be ultrasonic. I wonder how many people have measurement equipment that goes up past 60kHz to measure K3 at 20kHz.
I am interested to know if anyone has data to back up the "high distortion of ribbon tweeters".
I am interested to know if anyone has data to back up the "high distortion of ribbon tweeters".
let me first say that I'm not a of Dynaudio, B&W and all that kind of so called "High End" stuff. To me there sound has nothing to do with reality at all. I heard the most expensive Dynaudio's a couple of times and they realy don't impress me, I'm sorry. I heard a Goto horn system some times and that's a totaly different story.
Many of the "high end" compagnies don't use ribbons for a couple of reasons. One of them is that it is a hundred times more difficult to find a good midrange unit wich integrates well with a ribbon tweeter. Ribbons are in basic better then domes in my opinion (and experience, I've had a lot of them) but using a ribbon doesn't mean that you will get a better overall sound from your speaker. If you want to use a ribbon you will have to start your speaker design with it, then find a good midrange for them (pretty hard job I can tell) and at last a suitable woofer. Most people work the other way around and most of those systems I have heard where actually better of with a dome tweeter.
As for the best treble unit, has anyone any experience with the Eton ER4 air motion transformers ? I'm curious about them.
Many of the "high end" compagnies don't use ribbons for a couple of reasons. One of them is that it is a hundred times more difficult to find a good midrange unit wich integrates well with a ribbon tweeter. Ribbons are in basic better then domes in my opinion (and experience, I've had a lot of them) but using a ribbon doesn't mean that you will get a better overall sound from your speaker. If you want to use a ribbon you will have to start your speaker design with it, then find a good midrange for them (pretty hard job I can tell) and at last a suitable woofer. Most people work the other way around and most of those systems I have heard where actually better of with a dome tweeter.
As for the best treble unit, has anyone any experience with the Eton ER4 air motion transformers ? I'm curious about them.
As to integrating treble unit with midrange/widerange driver.
I'm looking for the tweeter to use it with my open baffle old Isophon drivers (stiff surround,super lite cone,low x-max).I will also want to try it with my second project with Fostex open baffled FE-204 with additional 15" bass driver.
I'm expecting the tweeter to be:
-96-97+ db
-8 ohm
-100-120$ a piece (can't afford more expensive right now)
I will probably cross it no lower than 8-10Khz
I'm thinking about:
- Fountek JP 2 ribbon
- Aurum Cantus G2i
- Fostex FT 96H
What do you think will suit better in this aplication.
Any other candidates?
Will glad hear any opinions
Bartek
I'm looking for the tweeter to use it with my open baffle old Isophon drivers (stiff surround,super lite cone,low x-max).I will also want to try it with my second project with Fostex open baffled FE-204 with additional 15" bass driver.
I'm expecting the tweeter to be:
-96-97+ db
-8 ohm
-100-120$ a piece (can't afford more expensive right now)
I will probably cross it no lower than 8-10Khz
I'm thinking about:
- Fountek JP 2 ribbon
- Aurum Cantus G2i
- Fostex FT 96H
What do you think will suit better in this aplication.
Any other candidates?
Will glad hear any opinions
Bartek
Sjef said:
I know the Designer of the ER4 prototypes and he don´t think himself they are the best. He talked about using them as dipole is pretty good.
btw. he is active in the forum here also, but i don´t know he will tell?
fdegrove said:
Thanks so much for your oppinion. That's exactly what I'm looking for. I already have both Raven R2 and Dynaudio Esotar tweeters. I started out with the intention of cloning the Dynaudio Evidence Temptation and then someone mentioned playing around with Raven tweeters... So.. I thought... Why not? Anyway, the next thing that I knew I was full of questions. So.. Here I am. Asking you guys. By the way, I have lots of experience with many different types of speakers Including listening to the Wilson Audio Maxx last night. Sorry to dissapoint anyone, but they are INCREDIBLE!!! JUST AS INCEREDIBLE IF NOT MORE more incredible than all the Apogees and Martin Logans that I've listened to. Which raises a question about ribbon transducers being an easy load? Hmmn? Anyway, I really appreciate the feedback and you definitely got me thinking in a positive constructive way.
Thansk, Nick
P.S. I live within 25 miles of New York City, so I have access to lots of high end audio gear. Some of the big names really are as good as they say they are.
fdegrove said:
Thanks so much for your oppinion. That's exactly what I'm looking for. I already have both Raven R2 and Dynaudio Esotar tweeters. I started out with the intention of cloning the Dynaudio Evidence Temptation and then someone mentioned playing around with Raven tweeters... So.. I thought... Why not? Anyway, the next thing that I knew I was full of questions. So.. Here I am. Asking you guys. By the way, I have lots of experience with many different types of speakers Including listening to the Wilson Audio Maxx last night. Sorry to dissapoint anyone, but they are INCREDIBLE!!! JUST AS INCEREDIBLE IF NOT MORE more incredible than all the Apogees and Martin Logans that I've listened to. Which raises a question about ribbon transducers being an easy load? Hmmn? Anyway, I really appreciate the feedback and you definitely got me thinking in a positive constructive way.
Thansk, Nick
P.S. I live within 25 miles of New York City, so I have access to lots of high end audio gear. Some of the big names really are as good as they say they are.
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