So the question is which cabinet option is best?
1) Frugel-Horn XL
2) Pencil
3) Plain 30 liter box per Davor's design.
1) Frugel-Horn XL
2) Pencil
3) Plain 30 liter box per Davor's design.
What are you looking for?
1/ very versatile, max (potential) bass extention (room and placement dependent more so than the Pensil)
2/ smaller footprint.
3/ can’t directly speak to it. A reflex will. not go as low as the above. It seems he is illustating the same concepts as this set of box designs.
http://wodendesign.com/downloads/King-of-Swingers.pdf
If you are using a 30 litre reflex you will need 2 Alpair 10.3 per box.
dave
1/ very versatile, max (potential) bass extention (room and placement dependent more so than the Pensil)
2/ smaller footprint.
3/ can’t directly speak to it. A reflex will. not go as low as the above. It seems he is illustating the same concepts as this set of box designs.
http://wodendesign.com/downloads/King-of-Swingers.pdf
If you are using a 30 litre reflex you will need 2 Alpair 10.3 per box.
dave
You dont need two Alpair 10P for 30 liter BR box.
I didnt make calculations for Alpair 10.3 (metal cone), so I can't comment on that.
In post #52 I just showed what's already well known for decades.
Additional series resistor gives higher Qts and higher Qts gives bigger box and lower F3.
Also well known max linear (flat) alignment is used beacuse OP vants flat response without active bass boost.
I don't see common knowledge as illustration of anyone's concepts or designes.
I didnt make calculations for Alpair 10.3 (metal cone), so I can't comment on that.
In post #52 I just showed what's already well known for decades.
Additional series resistor gives higher Qts and higher Qts gives bigger box and lower F3.
Also well known max linear (flat) alignment is used beacuse OP vants flat response without active bass boost.
I don't see common knowledge as illustration of anyone's concepts or designes.
As much bass in as small a driver as possible. haha. I see Alpair 10 / 11 / 12. But I think the 8" -12 is too big. I read the 6 1/2" -11 is a better driver than the 6" -10 but only comes in metal. Historically, I have preferred paper over metal drivers - Tang-Band and Seas.
F3 of 51Hz is okay as long as is flat to 51Hz and is not like the typical 4" I use which die at 200Hz and go along to 50 but at -15dB.
Don't know why there are no specs for the Frugel horn or pencil. Not even a F-R cuve so I really can't make and logical decision. I would imagine a larger floorstander box will gove more natural bass than a standmount but I'd rather go woth a standmount due to other problems like cabinet resonances of the bigger box. Also not had best luck with T-L designs and how they sound compared to regular vented box.
42 is better than 51 as long as there is same quality of sound.
Is this the formula for max flat alignment? Adding a resistor will increase Qts and reduce the quality of sound?
Davor, can you post a sim of your reflex. I would not put A10p in more than 20 litre, the optimal miniOnken is 17 litre.
dave
dave
Yes it is. Max flat means bass response of reflex box will be leveled.
But you'll still need some BSC to make proper balance with mid/highs.
As said before, you can't get more bass without moving more air. So I can't guarantee sound quality with additional resistor will be the same.
Example With Alpair 10P in post #52 has tuning frequency Fb equal to Fs. Driver isn't pushed below Fs, so loss of quality should be negligible.
But, please note I never made anything with Markaudio drivers. Dave (Planet10) is expert for them, so if you going to trust his recommendations its fine by me.
Using Alpair 10P:
Vb=20*Vas*Qts^3.3 I get Vb = 15.46 liter, not 30. If I use Vas 30 from M-A specs.
F3=Fs*0.28*Qts^-1.4
Assume Fs = Fo I get F3 = 56, not 51Hz and Fb = 51.6. I do nor see how you can change F3 because Fs (Fo) is fixed.
F3=Fs*0.28*Qts^-1.4 I am not seeing how you can calculate Fs with your equations as it is fixed from Fs = Fo
RE FH vs Pensil:
My room is 13 ft wide x 14 ft deep. My room requires speakers 8 ft apart and 4 ft from front wall.I listen ~10-12 ft away.
I read here the Frugel-horn give better sound but concerned cos I can not move them around much.
How much lower is FH bass than Pensil? No one ever shows a F-R.
Do FH or Pensil need BSC?
You are talking about Mark Audio Pensil 10 .3 but can I use the 10P? I prefer 10P because I listen on-axis and I think the sharp HF peaks of 10.3 metal will be a problem. Even at 12 feet away.
Where does the stuffing go in the FH or Pensil?
I also see King of the Swingers LARGE is about .8 ft3 or 22.6 liter. But not being TL will not go as deep?
It seems the Pensil or FH is better because :
1) 30 liters is too big for the 10P.
2) Davor's 30 liter box will still require BSC.
I can use this BSC with my Tang-Band W4-616 ? What is the width of the BSC and what is max attenuation centered where?
I intend to built the most appropriate box for 10P and compare to W4-616, Genelec G4, Ascend Acoustics Sierra, and Ohm Walsh Tall 1000.
I was trying for just under 6dB turning over at 200Hz.
Any level and frequency you want, just say the word.
Any level and frequency you want, just say the word.
Forget the FH.
FH, No, Pensil maybe. Out that far maybe. We never had to use it.
Stuffing instructions are in the plan documents, and you will find many examples. Often not up to par, the pluff needs to be well teased.
dave
Okay, where do they need to be?
Is there any thread here comparing the Pensil to FH? I search and can't seem to hit the right search criteria.
How about FR? Seems to be NOBODY who ever measured the darned things?
Thanks so much. I have 2 speakers SEAS Excel W12CY-003 and other with Tang-Band W4-616. I would like to try 2 different notch filters, One wide one narrow. 700-1,300Hz and 500-2,500Hz Probably 6dB deepest depression would be good.I know people say 9dB but I think that would be too extreme. It may measure better but too much eq to get perfect FR is not so good fro sound quality IME
You can see the drivers FR, also Davor did TB 616 in post #31 and see if something else may be better?
The back should be quite close to the wall behind them to finish loading the horn. One can compensate abit with less damping but you get a bit more ripple.
dave
You got different results beacuse you didnt use the new Qts value with series resistance in the formulas.
As said, additional series resistance gives higher Qts.
And when you use that new, higher Qts in the formulas, that gives bigger box and lower F3.
Fs (or Fo in MA datasheet) remains the same.
So you use the same 8 ohm resistor and vary the inductor? I thought notch filter had a dip in the middle and the HF would remain unchanged. But your graphs do not look this way.
I did find a few on-line calculators. Note they include a capacitor as well.Parallel Notch Circuit for Loudspeaker and DIY audio and video Parallel Notch Filter Designer / Calculator but I don't know how accurate they are.
Okay, will do. I see the King of the Swingers LARGE Mark Audio Pluvia 11 – 23 litres is 23 liters for the 4.5" Mark Audio.
Yes, very good. I used the new Q and was able to duplicate your calculation; This is very handy and shows you can not just increase bass by changing the port. The box tuning has to be designed first.
I like the idea of adding a resistor to increase Q. Fs is free air resonant frequency of the driver? Right now, I have the SEAS Excel W12CY-003 7 liter cabinet tuned to below the 60Hz Fs of this driver. Adding a resistor will push the bass even deeper. Is this a bad thing?
I did some searching of F-R. First i was told by one person, the Pensil-type designs will give about 5Hz deeper bass compared to conventional box like the King of Swingers and it will sound more natural.
Page 5 for Alpair 12 - 8" driver shows is good to about 60 Hz / dies at 50Hz. So the Alpair 10P would be less.
Pluvia 11 4 1/2" cone is good to about 125Hz.
RVB Precision BUILDING PENSIL 10.2 SPEAKERS had these graphs
So it was no surprise the builder said "The bass was a bit more than I like. Stuffing some Poly-Fill into the bass slot calmed it down perfectly." Sounds like a lot of work doing trial and error.
F10 in the low-mid 30s, F6 in the mid 40s. F3 is meaningless to human ear/brain (ref Toole).
A10.2 is NLA. For a long time.
dave
This is a shelving filter, not a notch filter. The highs level out like the lows, with a step in between. I have exaggerated the jump by stretching the Y axis so you can readily see the frequency of the step.
The resistor affects the level of the step.
Yes, Fs is usually given as free air resonant frequency.
Its not a bad thing, its a compromise.
How much, it depends on your personal preferences. I support experiment with Seas W12CY003 in 7 Liter box.
Around 0,4 liters is occupied by driver and vent, leaving around 6,6 liters to work with.
If suitable value of series resistor is used, than Vb will match available box volume.
Driver specs:
Fs=60Hz
Vas=4Liters
Qts=0,36
Lets try total series resistance of Rs=1,9 Ohm. New Qts=0,47 and max flat alignment gives:
F3=48,3Hz
Fb=52Hz
Vb=6,6Liters