OK got it.
I Like the idea of addinga tweeter witha FR, in fact it really is a must have. sheen/ambience.
I'd like a FR to extend at least 15khz, but if it does not, then at least present good low fq's say 45hz roll off.
I can easilly add a good tweeter to take things up past 12khz.
On the breakup modular distortion.
I have no test equip, and so any tweaking with caps/filters can't happen
Most of my classical recordings don't really deserve highest fidelity.
What these FR do is far superior to any 2/3 way low sens type, such as Wilson, Dali, Sonus Faber, Zu etc.
So I'm happy about that.
THAT = not falling for low sens speakers as the Be All End All speaker game.
This group has no idea what they are missing by NOT ADDING in a FR speaker to the mix.
~~~~~~~~
well yeah, take the latest HOT speaker (stock pik) over on Audiogon
Zu and Tekton.
what garbage, yet due to the latest hype both labs have backorders.
Snakeoil still sells.
And those things are not cheap either.
Expensive junk.
..Which is why I don't wish to hype the Davidlouis over much,,,, just mentioning as a possible contender in the FR competition.
I have no issues with highs, never, What bugs me is the 100-500 paper cone type resonances, you know like the radio Shak Nova 7 and Advents, Acoustic Research AR3's. and such.
grates my nerves.
I love magnesium for this anti-paper sound, also wood cones have no characteristic like paper (aka 1970's 1980's sound)
I 'd like to have a larger woofer as bass, a 10 or 12, , but with dual W18's, i get a pretty good bass kick in the 40hz+ region.
No complaints.
So here's a Q
Lets take 4 labs I think are worth the bang in FR speakers
Tang Band, Fostex, Mark Audio , DavidLouis
How woudl you guys make a review.
How much is a personal opinion and how much is based on real data.
Will each of you walk away with a dif set of values, maybe one of you loves what Tang Band does, the oher Fostex, and maybe no one likes Davidlouis.
Meaning to say you guys have been around quite a few FR and almost immediaetly can spot weakness and strengths.
Also have you noted how each lab has a certain sound character = *The House Signature*.
Fostex will not sould like Davidlouis,.
Although I will say the
tang band 2145 and DLVX8 behind a curtain, you might have trouble saying which is which on certain test cds.
Might bea lucky guess at times.
I'd like to hear some experiences/ideas about how you guys judge whats acceptable, whats not.
I'd like someone to order either the DLVX6 or DLVX8 and give some opinion on performance
btw guy says on web' VX6 Nd magnet and says nothing about VX8 magnet...I just wrote him and so far he will NOT respond on the Q.
IMHO both are ferrite, maybe he deleted that descipt of Nd on the VX6.
He is very slow to respond on any message and he is now avoiding the Q.
This is the speaker on my wish list.
says Nd, but looks same magnet as the VX8 which am not sure if ferrite or Nd.
2 unit DavidLouis audio wooden cone HiEND 6.5 inch fullrange speaker 2020Ver | eBay
Lets take 4 labs I think are worth the bang in FR speakers
Tang Band, Fostex, Mark Audio , DavidLouis
How woudl you guys make a review.
How much is a personal opinion and how much is based on real data.
Will each of you walk away with a dif set of values, maybe one of you loves what Tang Band does, the oher Fostex, and maybe no one likes Davidlouis.
Meaning to say you guys have been around quite a few FR and almost immediaetly can spot weakness and strengths.
Also have you noted how each lab has a certain sound character = *The House Signature*.
Fostex will not sould like Davidlouis,.
Although I will say the
tang band 2145 and DLVX8 behind a curtain, you might have trouble saying which is which on certain test cds.
Might bea lucky guess at times.
I'd like to hear some experiences/ideas about how you guys judge whats acceptable, whats not.
I'd like someone to order either the DLVX6 or DLVX8 and give some opinion on performance
btw guy says on web' VX6 Nd magnet and says nothing about VX8 magnet...I just wrote him and so far he will NOT respond on the Q.
IMHO both are ferrite, maybe he deleted that descipt of Nd on the VX6.
He is very slow to respond on any message and he is now avoiding the Q.
This is the speaker on my wish list.
says Nd, but looks same magnet as the VX8 which am not sure if ferrite or Nd.
2 unit DavidLouis audio wooden cone HiEND 6.5 inch fullrange speaker 2020Ver | eBay
Wish to add 1 more FR on my list having heard
how could i forget...
Voxativ AC1A
witha ring of Nd magnets,,
hahaha, what a bomb.
Sens might be 82db , thats being generous.
Listed it 1 hour after testing at $1300+ free ship sold it in one day,,,, + I paid his taxes $100 and hope to send him a lil xmas gift to boot.
I think somene from this DIY site bought it, can't recall.
My guess is the Vox wood cone is their best speaker and they know it which is why they are asking Gold for it.
Sorry if the DLVX8 performs 95% of what the Vox wood cone does, then why pay the price tag???
One word
WOW
See IT ~~IS Believing It
New excellent full range Fostex FE108EZ Photo #1853301 - US Audio Mart
unrealllll
and yes if it sounds even half as good as it looks, its a winner
scratch the Davidlouis VX6.
WOW
See IT ~~IS Believing It
New excellent full range Fostex FE108EZ Photo #1853301 - US Audio Mart
unrealllll
and yes if it sounds even half as good as it looks, its a winner
scratch the Davidlouis VX6.
I spent much of my previous life devising and attempting measurements which told me what listeners would like in a speaker .. when my job was designing speakers. Some of these were expensive and difficult to do in those days eg CDS (KEFplots or the fashionable waterfalls) bla bla
Today, with 21st century digits, these can be done much more easily and cheaply by those in the know. But the interpretation of these measurements are still poorly understood by most people including some of the most respected stereophile reviewers 🙂
I would claim even today, the very best measurements can distinguish a poor speaker from a good one. But an experienced listener can determine that in about 10s 😱
What the very best measurements today STILL can't do is tell an excellent speaker from a merely good one.
In da previous Millenium, I was a DBLT guru and this is STILL the Gold standard for 'measurements'.
A single DBLT on a single person is a datapoint. But several DBLTs involving the same & different people is a 'measurement' and has an accuracy like any reliable measurement.
I could go on but this is already too long.
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The best FR unit I've subjected to DBLTs is the original Lowther PM6 in an Acousta cabinet. It surpasses several multi-way 'BBC monitor' type speakers in the aspects these monitors are supposedly supreme. It is the best unit of its era I have ever listened to.
Second was the Wharfedale Super8RSDD. Troels is contemptuous of it but he didn't use it in the way it was designed to be used. Somewhat further behind is the Philips 9170M (?)
I've only designed for real one FR unit and it wasn't as good as the Super 8 but that was for other unrelated reasons.
I've not heard any of the 21st century units mentioned in this thread so can't even comment.
________________________________________
mozartfan, you've suggested many FR units in this thread. Can you tell us which are the ones you have actually heard?
Second was the Wharfedale Super8RSDD. Troels is contemptuous of it but he didn't use it in the way it was designed to be used. Somewhat further behind is the Philips 9170M (?)
I've only designed for real one FR unit and it wasn't as good as the Super 8 but that was for other unrelated reasons.
I've not heard any of the 21st century units mentioned in this thread so can't even comment.
________________________________________
mozartfan, you've suggested many FR units in this thread. Can you tell us which are the ones you have actually heard?
You know I have to agree
back in 1981 I bought the Philips 475 called High Fidelity which sported that clear dome tweet which is stilll to this day highly respected as offering life like vocals, pure magic.
That speaker was no match for the seas Thors,
Thought the world of the Thors,,, since building the kit 2004,,,fast forward last yr,,, Placed a cheap Diatone 6 next to the Thors,, blown away with higher sens.
Point is even though the Diatone DavidLouis sounds like crapola, still the higher sens opened up the music.
Chraps and such as important, agree, but as you say a Golden Ear audiophile/tech geek like you guys, know how to zoom in and listen to various critical factors,,, gathering info in seconds as each fq is either done right or there is a breach in the fabric.
After only 1 good test song, you guys can grade a FR as to its quality/value. Over priced, good deal, or simply trash.
Most hobby audiophiles are still stuck in the low sens xover/commercial/consumerism types. Which all sound to me like trash,,Exception are a few of Troels designs,, but then his xovers cost a small fortune. I see these speakers as dinasaurs.
But your avg consumer can't tell high fidelity from garbage. and are willing to pay up big $'s for highly colored, highly distorted LOUD speakers, such as Wilson's etc.
There is a geek on YT a few months ago , tested fully the Seas FA22RCZ, gave 2 thumbs up said its a clean driver,,ordered it,, sent it right back to madisound after 10 minutes of torture, pure trash.
I just don't trust measurments all that much.
I look at cone material, magnet size, magnet type and minor details, build/db sens is very important. Fs also important.
After hearing,,ohh about 8 dif FR's, I 'm getting better at determining what i like/don't like in how a speaker voices.
Border line speakers takes more time.
Like the DavidLouis Yellow cone 6 witha Nd magnet,, thought it was great.
Then pluged iit in with the DLVX8 and quickly noticed the mids were a bit stressed vs the cleaner mids oft the DLVX8, also bass a bit too soft and highs a bit too rolled off.
The graph/specs may show stunning speaker,,
But in real time it is not so.
This speaker is not worth what I paid $471, maybe best about $175. if that, as a Fostex and Tang Band have models that are superior for $175 a pair.
ahhh just now looked at the Fq/SPL chart,, ~Roller Coaster ~~~ the entire chart.
Zig and Zag
No wonder it has issues.
So you see, charts don't lie.
Its a clone of the famous Lowther brand
Another strike against it.
All hindsight now.
I'm giving them away to a friend overseas.
Ebay Item # is
322359499842
Same as I do here, using known proven instrument, human hearing charts with the occasional 'IME' comments on subjects 'near n' dear' to me as appropriate.
Yes, some of us are experienced enough in the 'art' of driver/speaker design to ~hear it in our heads when given sufficient tech data.
Yes, glaringly obvious in some cases with the Altec Vs JBL 'West Coast Sound' being the original instigators that was done out of marketing necessity, then in the mid '50s Acoustic Research pioneered the 'East Coast Sound' with its AR-1 with its high power sealed woofer, W.E./Altec 755A mid/HF driver: Acoustic Research AR1 Speakers Photo #1562676 - US Audio Mart
For the most part I'm a tweaker, so as long as the price is commensurate with its quality I can make it 'sing' to my satisfaction, though rubber surrounds are a no-no due to timing issues via hysteresis, ditto any tall ones that cause strong eigenmodes/standing waves.
If considering for others, then I want a very rigid, well damped 12" frame, tonally flat [phase and amplitude] over at least the 100-8 kHz BW with at least a 40 Hz Fs and peaking 20 kHz for top end 'air'. Diaphragms/whizzers ideally would be the pioneer's hemp designs doped as required to get the desired flex, which today is ~the same as hemp lead guitar types with AlNiCo magnets, 1" flat wire VC.
Unfortunately, none exist, nor likely to be, but 'hope springs eternal'.
For myself, an 8" version of the ~stillborn Babb Lorelei with a few modifications represents current SOTA 20-20 kHz [F3] tonally flat performance [measured] at a long ago Atlanta DIY Meet.
With a 1.2" [inch] fluid damped linear travel, no spider, incredibly thin/compliant surround, plastic diaphragm with phase plug designed protective grill that provides a [too] wide/flat power response with at least a 400 W power rating according to [Alan] Babb's HT experience. Basically a true full range compression driver, so needs no box/horn.
Downsides are cost and designed for marine apps, so it's completely sealed, hence non repairable.
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Man what a lil monster.
Thats the lil FE108.
can't wait to hold in my hands the FE168.
As thats the one I will indeed 100% order is the FE168EZ.
Let me say the Davidlouis VX8 ain't no cheapie on build.
It has details and finesse written all over the driverDid someone say the Sigma line has been out since 2000, replaing the older model Sigma??
If that is the case, 20 yr old techology , yet still uptodate high fidelity sound,,, then its not the technology tahts behind the times but stubborn old crusted audiophiles who refuse to admit their low sens/xover things have seen better days.
Tekton, Wilson, Dali, Sonus faber , Vanderteen, Thiel, just lousey, trash.
I also hate concentric, ESL and horns.
I need xover speakers only as assit,
Nada mas.
But as front/center musical experience,,, no way could i ever go back to that design.
Thats the lil FE108.
can't wait to hold in my hands the FE168.
As thats the one I will indeed 100% order is the FE168EZ.
Let me say the Davidlouis VX8 ain't no cheapie on build.
It has details and finesse written all over the driverDid someone say the Sigma line has been out since 2000, replaing the older model Sigma??
If that is the case, 20 yr old techology , yet still uptodate high fidelity sound,,, then its not the technology tahts behind the times but stubborn old crusted audiophiles who refuse to admit their low sens/xover things have seen better days.
Tekton, Wilson, Dali, Sonus faber , Vanderteen, Thiel, just lousey, trash.
I also hate concentric, ESL and horns.
I need xover speakers only as assit,
Nada mas.
But as front/center musical experience,,, no way could i ever go back to that design.
Fostex FE series is definitely evolving.
In terms of current products, FE168SS-HP (limited product) is wonderful.
FE168SS-HP | Fostex(フォステクス)
In terms of current products, FE168SS-HP (limited product) is wonderful.
FE168SS-HP | Fostex(フォステクス)
Thanks for the update!
$337.19! Looks the part though except for its tiny Vas 'killing' efficiency and yes I understand the need for small. 🙁
That's a pretty strange looking frequency response, can you explain the reasoning behind it?
$337.19! Looks the part though except for its tiny Vas 'killing' efficiency and yes I understand the need for small. 🙁
That's a pretty strange looking frequency response, can you explain the reasoning behind it?
Dear GM,
The measurement method seems to have changed since the FE-NV and NS series.
According to the development engineer, they are being developed with an emphasis on audibility.
In fact, when I listened to them, I found that the freshness remained the same, and the harshness was reduced.
The measurement method seems to have changed since the FE-NV and NS series.
According to the development engineer, they are being developed with an emphasis on audibility.
In fact, when I listened to them, I found that the freshness remained the same, and the harshness was reduced.
I wish they'd give some venting below the spider on these drivers. Not that they're alone in that, & granted, for these apps it's not as critical as in some others, so I'm not pointing fingers.
Hmm. Peak at 2KHz & another at 7KHz, which might emphasise sibilance on female vocals etc. As you say, they've changed how they present the measurements, but comparing to the FE168ESigma & accounting for the different graph scales, smoothing etc., the response looks reasonably similar. The new unit looks to be a bit cleaner / flatter on-axis through the ~2.5KHz - 6KHz band. I see rated Mms is up by about a gram relative to the ESigma; I guess they need the bigger magnet because they've put a slightly higher impedance coil on it (7.2ohm rather than 6.8ohm nominal, which probably accounts for some of that increase in Mms) & would have lost some efficiency / sensitivity otherwise.
Hmm. Peak at 2KHz & another at 7KHz, which might emphasise sibilance on female vocals etc. As you say, they've changed how they present the measurements, but comparing to the FE168ESigma & accounting for the different graph scales, smoothing etc., the response looks reasonably similar. The new unit looks to be a bit cleaner / flatter on-axis through the ~2.5KHz - 6KHz band. I see rated Mms is up by about a gram relative to the ESigma; I guess they need the bigger magnet because they've put a slightly higher impedance coil on it (7.2ohm rather than 6.8ohm nominal, which probably accounts for some of that increase in Mms) & would have lost some efficiency / sensitivity otherwise.
Greets!
Thanks! FWIW, all the designs I've done for myself, others during my active DIY 'career' was ~the same except with a bit 'softer' transitions like the pioneers used since I'm an 'acoustic solutions to acoustic problems' type and it's high time manufacturers return to 'embracing' more/all of the pioneer's design philosophy rather than a few that too often are out of context without the rest.
Understood, I can't tolerate any speaker that ~strongly emphasizes any part of the critical ~4 - 10 kHz BW due apparently to my ~ lifelong tinitus, so would need a notch filter whereas normally with horn/MI drivers I would just do a broadband frequency compensation/band-pass/CD horn EQ/LCR filter and call it 'good enough'.
Dear Scott,
Some models of fostex(foster) have ventilation holes under the spider.
I think, the engineer may have decided that a model without ventilation holes is unnecessary.
Dear GM,
I understand your situation, Good luck.
Some models of fostex(foster) have ventilation holes under the spider.
I think, the engineer may have decided that a model without ventilation holes is unnecessary.
Dear GM,
I understand your situation, Good luck.
See this is one of the things that bugs me about Fostex,,although never heard a single 1 in my life,,the simple fact that Fostex has so many models, so many **Limited Editions** gives me pause to purchase... **The Fostex house sound**
Don't get me wrong I think most of the Fostex are excellent and I hope one day to find a pair on Ebay at 1/2 price,,,but til that time comes, I'm sticking with the Davidlouis house sound.
I like what the DLVX8 does. And DL only offers the 2 models, VX6 or VX8,,like saying **look here is the best we can do, take it or leave it**..
Both are the new 2020 version.
I saw a image of the old version,, they look like crap.
I already invested in the DLVX8 and hope early next yr to add the DLVX6...afterwards one of the Fostex, which ever one i see at a good price on Ebay, for testing purposes..
Not many offered,,seems most folks hang on to their Fostex,,although I bet some of you have several pairs sitting on your shelf at the moment, for **Future projects**
😉
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