The ones that are close to component value, last a long time and will take some heat, oh and economical.
I read some and skimmed some on this thread and expected to see the subjective versus the sensor/measurement camps and the thread did not disappoint.
My 2 pence worth. Earlier this year just before the general confinement started here my occasional neighbour made a permanent move to his place next door to us. After the confinement and with no work and nothing to do apart from practice he started going through all the junk he brought down with him, he is a cellist, a reasonably famous cellist. He inherited a small Neve mixer that had not seen use since the late 80's by his reckoning.
He asked me if it was safe to fire it up, I said probably not so of course we did and there was no surprise to find a lot of noise, crackling on filter changes and on fader pots, oh and a little humming but no fire or explosion. It was in storage not under the best conditions, the bird poo on the bubble wrapping was a good indicator.
He asked me how much it might cost to renovate it and I replied quite a lot because it has a lot of moving parts all of which will need removal and cleaning.
I took a look at the boards to see if the electrolytics had signs of leakage and found a good few with bulges but nothing hideous or leakage. I did think about offering to fit new caps but I buttoned my lip, being sucked into a job without end is no fun.
My point is that this mixer may have been the link between an instrumentalist or vocalist and the recording equipment, probably a tape machine back then. This highly important tool is chock with black ITT and the blue Philips caps.
So when you buy your unobtanium caps with hand written values in gothic script remember that the music you are listening to may have been produced on very expensive equipment full of standard issue industrial capacitors. The humble ITT may have got to your music long before it arrived at your boutique capacitors and your ears.
I read some and skimmed some on this thread and expected to see the subjective versus the sensor/measurement camps and the thread did not disappoint.
My 2 pence worth. Earlier this year just before the general confinement started here my occasional neighbour made a permanent move to his place next door to us. After the confinement and with no work and nothing to do apart from practice he started going through all the junk he brought down with him, he is a cellist, a reasonably famous cellist. He inherited a small Neve mixer that had not seen use since the late 80's by his reckoning.
He asked me if it was safe to fire it up, I said probably not so of course we did and there was no surprise to find a lot of noise, crackling on filter changes and on fader pots, oh and a little humming but no fire or explosion. It was in storage not under the best conditions, the bird poo on the bubble wrapping was a good indicator.
He asked me how much it might cost to renovate it and I replied quite a lot because it has a lot of moving parts all of which will need removal and cleaning.
I took a look at the boards to see if the electrolytics had signs of leakage and found a good few with bulges but nothing hideous or leakage. I did think about offering to fit new caps but I buttoned my lip, being sucked into a job without end is no fun.
My point is that this mixer may have been the link between an instrumentalist or vocalist and the recording equipment, probably a tape machine back then. This highly important tool is chock with black ITT and the blue Philips caps.
So when you buy your unobtanium caps with hand written values in gothic script remember that the music you are listening to may have been produced on very expensive equipment full of standard issue industrial capacitors. The humble ITT may have got to your music long before it arrived at your boutique capacitors and your ears.
"probably", "may" yeah.
It "might" as well have been simply good industrial parts in the right time (so nothing worn out or bulged). Nothing wrong with that.
It "might" as well have been simply good industrial parts in the right time (so nothing worn out or bulged). Nothing wrong with that.
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Warning to all Audiophile tweakers, modders & builders: Rubycon ZL & ZA do have extreme low ESR and overall excellent ratings. But they are one of the worst sounding caps ever build! No low bass no body totally over the top highs and aggressive upper mids, no textures in the mids and no sense for rhythmic.
After over 15 years of building & modding High-End gear my 2 cents: Use Nichicon KZ or FG and combine it with Elna Silmic II (not I) to tame the upper mids and the bass to your liking. KZ has more mid clarity and a little more bass slam than FG but very similar. In my OpAmp preamp PSU I use KZ & FG (bigger caps after rectifiers) alone. But on the PreAmp PCB the 2 470uF/50V KZs are in combo with 10uF/50V Silmic II caps. The gain stage has Silmic II (47/50) on the dual rails and the buffer has KZ (47/50) for plus and minus voltages. This 47uF caps are in combo with WIMA FKP2 0.1uF and C0G 1000pF.
If you want it cheaper use UCC KZN or Nichicon VX instead of KZ/FG and Nichicon VZ instead of Silmic II.
After over 15 years of building & modding High-End gear my 2 cents: Use Nichicon KZ or FG and combine it with Elna Silmic II (not I) to tame the upper mids and the bass to your liking. KZ has more mid clarity and a little more bass slam than FG but very similar. In my OpAmp preamp PSU I use KZ & FG (bigger caps after rectifiers) alone. But on the PreAmp PCB the 2 470uF/50V KZs are in combo with 10uF/50V Silmic II caps. The gain stage has Silmic II (47/50) on the dual rails and the buffer has KZ (47/50) for plus and minus voltages. This 47uF caps are in combo with WIMA FKP2 0.1uF and C0G 1000pF.
If you want it cheaper use UCC KZN or Nichicon VX instead of KZ/FG and Nichicon VZ instead of Silmic II.
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Low voltage caps:
Epcos: Bloated bass, slow, muddy.
BHC (not slit-foil): Even more bloated bass, recessed mids & highs. Soundstage is fuzzy.
Elna Cerafine: Too bright. Light bass & body. Fast & good transient attack.
Rubycon ZL & ZA: Sterile, bright, no bass & body, agressive upper mids, unbearable.
Panasonic FM/FR/FC: Bloated upper bass, low bass undefined. Fuzzy mids, unclear highs. Soundstage fuzzy & blurry. Instrument location gets lost. Soft warm overall sound. Still better than most normal caps. Overall it sounds somewhat distorted.
Slimic I (not II): Bloated bass & upper bass. Recessed mids & highs. Uneven, dark no details, no space. Diminished soundstage.
Silmic II: More upper bass than others but very rhythmic and involving. Best dynamics of all. Slightly recessed mids. Clear clean highs. Good stage and space.
KZ: Most open mids, very detailed highs, extreme low bass but still articulate. Very neutral at all.
FG: Similar to KZ, mids a nuance worse, body a nuance less. Smaller in size and less cost than KZ makes this a superb upgrade.
FW: Very similar to FG but a nuance worse overall. Still a super upgrade.
VX: Clean clear slightly dry & open sound.
VZ: Tube like, smooth and warm.
BlackGate F: Upfront sound, slightly aggressive. Dramatic loss of stage depth - philharmonic orchestra pressed in 1m depth! Good bass & body. Aggressive highs. Excellent dynamics.
Elna BiPolar: Similar to Silmic II but more open and clearer mids.
Nichicon ES BiPolar: Notes are not played to the end, at very low level they just stop. This means also that the decay and ambience info is recessed very clearly. Little space and depth detail. Voices do sound good and clear. Slightly recessed bass. Lacks some slam. Sounds like an old design cos the shortcomings are typical for vintage caps.
Epcos: Bloated bass, slow, muddy.
BHC (not slit-foil): Even more bloated bass, recessed mids & highs. Soundstage is fuzzy.
Elna Cerafine: Too bright. Light bass & body. Fast & good transient attack.
Rubycon ZL & ZA: Sterile, bright, no bass & body, agressive upper mids, unbearable.
Panasonic FM/FR/FC: Bloated upper bass, low bass undefined. Fuzzy mids, unclear highs. Soundstage fuzzy & blurry. Instrument location gets lost. Soft warm overall sound. Still better than most normal caps. Overall it sounds somewhat distorted.
Slimic I (not II): Bloated bass & upper bass. Recessed mids & highs. Uneven, dark no details, no space. Diminished soundstage.
Silmic II: More upper bass than others but very rhythmic and involving. Best dynamics of all. Slightly recessed mids. Clear clean highs. Good stage and space.
KZ: Most open mids, very detailed highs, extreme low bass but still articulate. Very neutral at all.
FG: Similar to KZ, mids a nuance worse, body a nuance less. Smaller in size and less cost than KZ makes this a superb upgrade.
FW: Very similar to FG but a nuance worse overall. Still a super upgrade.
VX: Clean clear slightly dry & open sound.
VZ: Tube like, smooth and warm.
BlackGate F: Upfront sound, slightly aggressive. Dramatic loss of stage depth - philharmonic orchestra pressed in 1m depth! Good bass & body. Aggressive highs. Excellent dynamics.
Elna BiPolar: Similar to Silmic II but more open and clearer mids.
Nichicon ES BiPolar: Notes are not played to the end, at very low level they just stop. This means also that the decay and ambience info is recessed very clearly. Little space and depth detail. Voices do sound good and clear. Slightly recessed bass. Lacks some slam. Sounds like an old design cos the shortcomings are typical for vintage caps.
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Silmic I or II? They do sound VERY different. IMHO Elna BiPolar is much better than Nichicon ES (Muse BiPolar).
"No low bass no body totally over the top highs and aggressive upper mids" This comment is very objective and not subjective. It would be wonderful if you can support it with frequency response and phase measurements. Without the measurements, it is hard for me to comprehend how a single capacitor (Rubycon ZL & ZA) can change the low bass, mid and high in different direction at the same time.
Singun, maybe its just your application that is wrong if you hear such dramatic differences between the capacitors...
Headphones don't give a true to life presentation of human auditory perception as human beings evolved without them to help hunt down prey and listen for danger as well as communicate via open air .
What you hear might sound dynamic -near and detailed but it isn't realism ,its exciting but not "real "
Even Stax,s 009,s are bright and need a smooth amp to compensate .
I take it then your audio equipment is fully DC connected using very low noise active devices , its FR is as flat as a pancake -very low THD/TIM-IMD high slew rate and so on ?
I actually own very expensive Stax "earspeakers " and what I hear can sound "wonderful " but realistic ?-- I don't think so.
An "in head " presentation is just that --in your head .
They can never portray the chest pounding sound from a rock concert and most recordings are balanced for speakers not headphones .
Its an artificial world of sound and as long as people accept that then its limitations are acceptable.
What you hear might sound dynamic -near and detailed but it isn't realism ,its exciting but not "real "
Even Stax,s 009,s are bright and need a smooth amp to compensate .
I take it then your audio equipment is fully DC connected using very low noise active devices , its FR is as flat as a pancake -very low THD/TIM-IMD high slew rate and so on ?
I actually own very expensive Stax "earspeakers " and what I hear can sound "wonderful " but realistic ?-- I don't think so.
An "in head " presentation is just that --in your head .
They can never portray the chest pounding sound from a rock concert and most recordings are balanced for speakers not headphones .
Its an artificial world of sound and as long as people accept that then its limitations are acceptable.
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I would agree with SG’s subjective listening opinions, having tried those same parts over the years.
Would you accept that I can myself only laugh about people who claim to hear such dramatic differences between capacitors? And if you claim to hear the difference in bass between Silmics and ZAs/ZLs then you MUST have a bad stereo or are simply delusional?
BTW I'm not here to prove anything, just want to help too.
See, it goes both ways.
You mean Rubycon ZL are so bad as signal coupling capacitors or as PS decoupling ones?
I absolutly agree with SinGun...
decoupling.
Sorry no measurments...those two rubicons are a pain and never have been a swap for the Black Gates.
The kz are a little short in the low end subjectivly but that kicks. Highs are fatiguing as the treble is not so good.
That is the mix and use of diferent caps that makes a device sounding better than one with all the same lytics everywhere.
If one don t want to loose time with fine tweaking...a not too much risk is to use Pan FR or Nicixon KG everywhere for decoupling...Sad advice though...the lytics have different purposes...long life, low or high esr, low leakage or not and all are usefull according my enthusiast experience only...30 years of devices tweakings...ahaha maybe 30 years lost as ears acuracy also declines...
decoupling.
Sorry no measurments...those two rubicons are a pain and never have been a swap for the Black Gates.
The kz are a little short in the low end subjectivly but that kicks. Highs are fatiguing as the treble is not so good.
That is the mix and use of diferent caps that makes a device sounding better than one with all the same lytics everywhere.
If one don t want to loose time with fine tweaking...a not too much risk is to use Pan FR or Nicixon KG everywhere for decoupling...Sad advice though...the lytics have different purposes...long life, low or high esr, low leakage or not and all are usefull according my enthusiast experience only...30 years of devices tweakings...ahaha maybe 30 years lost as ears acuracy also declines...
Here you are diyiggy, wondered why it took you so long to come into this threat. Lol Re KZ I beg to differ yes highs zinggy but slam can be very very good the trick is using the correct uf value. Word of caution though use only 50v version the 25v type sucks big time.
Cheers
Cheers
I very often agree with Erlend and analogSa here as Sumotan as well. There is something as we share the same experience and have all tons of caps to know. Caps and resistors are not all of course, noone believes that, but the bad caps at tje right place and vis versa can waste the sounding of a device than pots on the pre can not solve...
Edit, high Sumotan...yep the first thing i made was to replace the rubycons on my Aya despite 100 hours of burnin in. Yes i said it, kz kicks in the mid bass but is short in the lows, for instance vs the boomy elna silmic 2...always prefer a FC or FR according what needed over these two ones...some kz in 100v are good vuse them in 10 uf 100v iirc in a Nad near the output transistors...
Edit, high Sumotan...yep the first thing i made was to replace the rubycons on my Aya despite 100 hours of burnin in. Yes i said it, kz kicks in the mid bass but is short in the lows, for instance vs the boomy elna silmic 2...always prefer a FC or FR according what needed over these two ones...some kz in 100v are good vuse them in 10 uf 100v iirc in a Nad near the output transistors...
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The ES of the 80s with the green not fluo casing were awsome, clear and organic textured at the same time in serie coupling. Yes the new ones are a little glassy cause very low noise hd and very clear...some uses it at decoupling near op amp but I find it to sound often straight without body...the glassy rhing you feel pehaps. A special bipolar to be // with something else...
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