In Alu yes. Thoose in iron was even worse. I prefer KP or better DCA cast and Mundorf Silver/gold in oil.
If booring (or boring) means a neutral sounding cap, it is good. Passive component is not suppose to have sound character of its own.
Well if one diy enough you'll notice even a pc of wire affects sound & I'm not speaking of exotic stuff. This thread will have no end to it.
We all know that passive device can have non-linearity and worse which introduce distortion and other problem. That's why we pick components with no sound of its own. To me, a neutral sounding equipment is a good audio piece.
I use low capacitance shielded wire for line level signal connection and 16 or heavier gage for speakers. They are sufficient in most cases. My ears are not sensitive enough to hear the impact of exotic wire stuff. I use only genuine transistor and IC sourced in the US or among fellow forum users. I ordered resistor and capacitor based on recommendation from people I trust.
I trust the judgement of Nelson Pass. It is the first time I try Elna Sil Series electrolytic for signal path use. Not to improve the sound. Just to keep the cap invisible.
We must remember that audio signal is dynamic with a range of frequency. The audible frequency range is important. And the transient signal demands much wider frequency and faster response to sound natural.
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Me too. And although i am generally not a teflon fan - this includes cabling too - i find the ex-Soviet caps much worse than any other teflon caps. They just kill dynamics and tonality but also remove sharp edges and make low quality sources more palatable.
Nelson Pass' comment and recommendation is very specific and with good justification. Being an engineer, I understand the concept of "good enough". The Elna silk capacitors may be that case for me. I will see for it myself.
analog_sa, your sarcastic comment is not helping anyone. If you have a better choice, tell us about it. If not, keep it to yourself.
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Failing to decipher the logic structure above
It is very simple: capacitors either make an audible difference in your system and to your ears or they don't. No amount of engineering is capable of explaining why they should, on the contrary.
Therefore if you you like the engineering approach, choose based on longevity and price. Technically any electrolytic capacitor you can buy at the big electronic suppliers today is plenty good enough.
Should your ears disagree buy a selection of what others seem to like and compare for yourself. I see no way of avoiding this. Would you start buying wine based on Nelson's choice? How about aftershave? Cheese?
Nelson Pass is one of the most respected audio designer in our generation. Many of our DIYers have built his design and enjoyed it. You can find more at the Pass Labs forum. There is no need for you to make sarcastic comment about him.
Yes, Nelson Pass may have his opinion about wine and cheese too.
We can't always afford polypropylene capacitors, much less
Teflon (tm), so we often make do with electrolytics when
we need those higher values.
My favorite is the Elna silk capacitors, available from Digikey,
and really cheap. The measure spectacularly, sound great,
and the manufacturer's translated description of why they
sound better is a Babelfish classic.
So before you run out and spend a lot on the highly hyped
spendy caps, try the Elna silk caps.
There's hemp in them, too.
Having money to throw at one's hobby does not make one an expert. Sound, not cost alone, is the consideration factor that Nelson Pass used.
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A recent research, comparing polarized and non polarized capacitors in audio as bypass or feedback, have shown interesting results with two NP electrolytics in series.
Though I have not read comparative listening results between them and similar polypropylene types, the only film types available in higher values.
Though I have not read comparative listening results between them and similar polypropylene types, the only film types available in higher values.
Electrolytics are cheaper, smaller and the only type available in large capacitance. But it degrades faster over time. Believe me, recap is not the most fun thing that I enjoy doing.
I use polypropylene type whenever possible. But when recap old commercial amplifier, space may not allow it. I order the Elna silk cap for the Sherwood S-6040CP input cap based on this thread.
Perhaps it is hard to understand that spices are a personal preference and their choice has little to do with respect. If you are cloning one of Nelson's designs it would make a lot of sense to copy the parts list as well, otherwise it would not.
The audio world is full of respected designers and all of them have their own personal preferences in capacitors. And so do diyers. Unencumbered by commercial restraints diyers enjoy a lot more choice
No. The audio world are full of self proclaimed experts whose opinion worth nothing to DIYers. People copy the design of Nelson Pass, John Curl etc. because of their proven track record. We are lucky to have them and several retired Op-Amp pioneers to participate in this DIYAUDIO forum. You will find that their opinion have no "commercial restraints", but are full of wisdom gain through the work of a life time. Yes, they can be biased and opinionated at times. But are always objective like a good engineer should.The audio world is full of respected designers and all of them have their own personal preferences in capacitors. And so do diyers. Unencumbered by commercial restraints diyers enjoy a lot more choice
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There's no denying of the Gurus in our audio world but which cap works great on a certain circuit does not warrant that it will sound just as good on another.
When it comes to commercial products Analog Sa is correct cost constrains etc comes into play. As for diyers we're free from such constrain & can buy, test whichever caps or resistors that we're interested inn.
Cheers
I have directly measured an Elna SILMIC-2 cap (RFS-35V471MJ7#5) on an Audio Precision APx-555, and they perform extremely well. The test was to bias them to some working voltage and then drive a sine wave through a 480uF polypropylene coupling cap array into a 100Ω series resistor into the test cap to ground. The voltage across the test cap was then analyzed for distortion using an FFT distortion analyzer.
I too am reluctant to use many 'audiophile' grade parts, because often they are not designed for low coloration, but rather specific colorations deemed pleasant. However, in this case, the SILMIC-2 caps are actually a good bit cleaner than other high quality electrolytics, such as Panasonic EEU-FR1V471 and UCC EKZN350ELL471MJ20S.
To put numbers onto it, using a 22V DC bias, a 100Ω series resistor and a +15dBV drive at 2kHz, the SILMIC cap passes about 56mA of signal current and develops a 2nd harmonic of -161dBV with the 3rd harmonic below the 512K FFT bin noise floor (around -163dBV).
With the same drive, the EKZN350ELL471MJ20S measured 2nd harmonic at -155dBV and 3rd harmonic at -146dBV. The Panasonic EEU-FR1V471 measured 2nd harmonic at -150dBV and 3rd harmonic at -139dBV.
So, it is clear that the Elna SILMIC-2 cap is actually cleaner than the Panasonic FR or a UCC KZN of the same voltage and value using the same drive. Whether this is important or not depends on the circuit, but just as a verifiable fact, the SILMIC caps are cleaner than conventional electrolytics.
I too am reluctant to use many 'audiophile' grade parts, because often they are not designed for low coloration, but rather specific colorations deemed pleasant. However, in this case, the SILMIC-2 caps are actually a good bit cleaner than other high quality electrolytics, such as Panasonic EEU-FR1V471 and UCC EKZN350ELL471MJ20S.
To put numbers onto it, using a 22V DC bias, a 100Ω series resistor and a +15dBV drive at 2kHz, the SILMIC cap passes about 56mA of signal current and develops a 2nd harmonic of -161dBV with the 3rd harmonic below the 512K FFT bin noise floor (around -163dBV).
With the same drive, the EKZN350ELL471MJ20S measured 2nd harmonic at -155dBV and 3rd harmonic at -146dBV. The Panasonic EEU-FR1V471 measured 2nd harmonic at -150dBV and 3rd harmonic at -139dBV.
So, it is clear that the Elna SILMIC-2 cap is actually cleaner than the Panasonic FR or a UCC KZN of the same voltage and value using the same drive. Whether this is important or not depends on the circuit, but just as a verifiable fact, the SILMIC caps are cleaner than conventional electrolytics.
Those are a clever bit of engineering. The metal end electrodes are also internal supports holding the foil and film well away from the external body. Save for the glass end seals the capacitor itself is actually suspended in air. Still, designed more for tanks than audio.
Hi Monte ... pleased to see that you are still around ;-)
Regarding capacitors I was wondering if you have ever tried to measure some of the newer organic polymer (hybrid) capacitors like e.g. the Panaconic ZC types?
I listened to some of the earlier (?) polymer capacitors, however, did not find them to be overall balanced - most often e.g. a somewhat sloppy bass - and assumed that this somehow could be tied to the very high leakage current of these capacitors. This apparently has changed, though, as these hybrid capacitors have normal levels of leakage current so they could be interesting ... Any chance you have measured them?
Cheers,
Jesper
Regarding capacitors I was wondering if you have ever tried to measure some of the newer organic polymer (hybrid) capacitors like e.g. the Panaconic ZC types?
I listened to some of the earlier (?) polymer capacitors, however, did not find them to be overall balanced - most often e.g. a somewhat sloppy bass - and assumed that this somehow could be tied to the very high leakage current of these capacitors. This apparently has changed, though, as these hybrid capacitors have normal levels of leakage current so they could be interesting ... Any chance you have measured them?
Cheers,
Jesper
