Mr Pass is a highly respected & gracious man so it goes without saying if he says something is good everyone will jump into the bandwagon. The thing is we all are caught up in wow factor one time or another but upon further testing & listening we discover it's flaws. Yes I too hardly use Silmic ll but the Japanese version sounds better then the Mouser, Digikey variant. Actually the first generation Silmics are pretty good very visceral but highs is not it's forte.
Cheers
Cheers
which makes for the fact that they are simply dry...nichicon and elna are well known for "audio use branded capacitors" but epcos, panasonic, nippon chemicon and rubycon industrial grade aren't bad!
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... The KZ serie being the only one having not the round & soft character of the others (all) Nichicons (but the very clear BP Muse as well).
The KZ is a little short in the low Bass when used at main power supply but excellent in the upper amp stages.
My preference often goes towards Panasonic, old Rubycon BG, Epcos & industrials caps... But as Sumotan said, one have to balance with many to get the result (the "bias" ?) everyone prefers in his whole hifi system.
The KZ is a little short in the low Bass when used at main power supply but excellent in the upper amp stages.
My preference often goes towards Panasonic, old Rubycon BG, Epcos & industrials caps... But as Sumotan said, one have to balance with many to get the result (the "bias" ?) everyone prefers in his whole hifi system.
For KZ I only use 50v cause they simply sound better but the most balance sounding in the KZ range is the 22uf 50v cap. KZ's highs not very good can sound splashy & zinggy at times. PS for amps I prefer Mundorf Mlythic far better sounding for my set up then even Super Thorough. Pan FC also not bad but presentation a little too forward for my liking.
yes zingy treble, that's why I prefer the FC over the KZ.
KZ with some Elnas works but a difficult task to acheive.
Hope Rehnelec understood one can not change a cap by another which is just famous. "Audio cap" range is meaning nothing... good result is not always guaranted.
Never putt a cap somewhere because one says it's a good cap for Audio, it's indeed the mix in relation to the whole sytem and final standalone sounding result we are talking about when it comes to the "sound of caps" subject.
For me it's like to play with parametric EQ but with more factors (soundstage, decay, clearness, flesh, bright, mat, dynamic, etc.) where a tech MUST cope with objectiv maesurements "only" cause he is in an industrial process.
DIY or what Mister Pass is doing with the First Watt are a great thing. It's bringing more rooms for music enthusiast
KZ with some Elnas works but a difficult task to acheive.
Hope Rehnelec understood one can not change a cap by another which is just famous. "Audio cap" range is meaning nothing... good result is not always guaranted.
Never putt a cap somewhere because one says it's a good cap for Audio, it's indeed the mix in relation to the whole sytem and final standalone sounding result we are talking about when it comes to the "sound of caps" subject.
For me it's like to play with parametric EQ but with more factors (soundstage, decay, clearness, flesh, bright, mat, dynamic, etc.) where a tech MUST cope with objectiv maesurements "only" cause he is in an industrial process.
DIY or what Mister Pass is doing with the First Watt are a great thing. It's bringing more rooms for music enthusiast
Hello again.
Sorry for my late answer. You lost me in all the numbers everybody :-D
BUT... I understand that I should use the same capacitors etc. that are already used in the PRE, thank you.No need to take any chances!
SO..... regarding my visit to this tech!:
I have some questions.. I really did not like how this started when I at first, gave him the FET. First of all he where a bit careless when taking it out of the original box from march 1987, "scraapiing" it along his table (..not the box) as if he "just" thought it was a cheap piece of PA equipment.. grrrr. So I told him to "be gentle to my babe - looks like ALL new, you see sir? He looked at me like a dog who did not understand the words of his master... So then, I asked him to open it up (so he could see what was actually inside) - which he did not do, he was already a bit angry at me... As he said, "I`ve been in this business for 25 years, been servicing B&O, (while pointing his fingers at the "certificate" hanging on the wall next to him), "I know what I am doing".
I was/and am a bit worried, because he did not seem to mind the goal of good sound......
I went away from his shop and he called me an hour later, he told me what was wrong: it needed new (maybe output!?) transistors I believe 7 of them and a.. ehm relay (danish: relæ)?!
I told him that Jon Soderberg from the old High End company "Threshold" (he did not know about Threshold.. I think: PA look-a-like for him.. you know), said that I should change the capacitors also.... He told me, "I looked at them and they look fine" (I DONT know if he did any measurements of them, because his answers where like... "I know what im doing" - but he should do that right?)
- He told me that he could get the RIGHT transistors, and I was amazed..... As far as I know it is not possible to get these anymore, and therefore you need to find alternatives to 2N5566 as an example - any respond to that?
- When changing/upgrading transistors, will it be normal TO MATCH them, if you are a technician? .. Do you normally buy "matched transistors", so that all of the new transistors are functioning perfect as they should?
- How about this relay? Do they come in a variaty? Will "this one" be better than "this one"? Well im sure he knows what he is doing, but again, im not sure he has this thing, "sound", calculated with it... I just dont know...
Thank you for all the replies!!
Regards..
Sorry for my late answer. You lost me in all the numbers everybody :-D
BUT... I understand that I should use the same capacitors etc. that are already used in the PRE, thank you.No need to take any chances!
SO..... regarding my visit to this tech!:
I have some questions.. I really did not like how this started when I at first, gave him the FET. First of all he where a bit careless when taking it out of the original box from march 1987, "scraapiing" it along his table (..not the box) as if he "just" thought it was a cheap piece of PA equipment.. grrrr. So I told him to "be gentle to my babe - looks like ALL new, you see sir? He looked at me like a dog who did not understand the words of his master... So then, I asked him to open it up (so he could see what was actually inside) - which he did not do, he was already a bit angry at me... As he said, "I`ve been in this business for 25 years, been servicing B&O, (while pointing his fingers at the "certificate" hanging on the wall next to him), "I know what I am doing".
I was/and am a bit worried, because he did not seem to mind the goal of good sound......
I went away from his shop and he called me an hour later, he told me what was wrong: it needed new (maybe output!?) transistors I believe 7 of them and a.. ehm relay (danish: relæ)?!
I told him that Jon Soderberg from the old High End company "Threshold" (he did not know about Threshold.. I think: PA look-a-like for him.. you know), said that I should change the capacitors also.... He told me, "I looked at them and they look fine" (I DONT know if he did any measurements of them, because his answers where like... "I know what im doing" - but he should do that right?)
- He told me that he could get the RIGHT transistors, and I was amazed..... As far as I know it is not possible to get these anymore, and therefore you need to find alternatives to 2N5566 as an example - any respond to that?
- When changing/upgrading transistors, will it be normal TO MATCH them, if you are a technician? .. Do you normally buy "matched transistors", so that all of the new transistors are functioning perfect as they should?
- How about this relay? Do they come in a variaty? Will "this one" be better than "this one"? Well im sure he knows what he is doing, but again, im not sure he has this thing, "sound", calculated with it... I just dont know...
Thank you for all the replies!!
Regards..
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Hi sumotan, all,
We are all here because we search for better sound quality. Many of the techi types are also passionate audio buffs. That means the collective "we" have more tools at our disposal.
When changes are made to circuits, or components or both, we also listen to the result. If it agrees with the measurements we know we are on the right path. This also validates the measurement methods in the process as well as help to train the ears for better sound.
Understand that in the field of audio engineering and repair, our jobs are all about better sound. So we have a day job, then we go home and do the same thing. Unlike others who do something different during the day and focus on audio in their free time. That really should be taken into account. We get paid to make audio better, and although some of us are completely misguided and pose a risk to people they come into contact with, the rest are very responsible and can apply changes that are shown to have a positive effect.
Anyway, about what can be measured, the RTX 6001 I'm using sees down to -140 dB with 1 dBu as the reference level. Imagine being able to sense signals that low! It would drive us crazy, and we can't hear anywhere even close to those numbers.
As for testing, we do test entire pieces of equipment, or simple circuits within, or even just the components. If there is a system problem, we can test the entire thing - which I have had to do from time to time.
Figuring out what really sounds the best without the aid of some technology is nigh impossible except for those things that are truly bad. For more subtle differences, it is far easier to weed out the good and less good performers.
One nugget of information you can use is this, for a capacitor to affect the sound quality, it must have a voltage differential across it caused by signals. That means a DC bias does not cause the capacitor to sound a certain way. But, if the capacitor is small enough so that there is an instantaneous voltage across it due to the signal, then it can cause trouble, or not depending on the quality of the part. Food for thought that should help our budding modifiers out there. This actually means that capacitors in the signal path that pass the signal through without loss will not impart any differences to the signal at all. Not unless you dig out some horrid part that actually has problems. Even then, they would develop some signal drop across them at some frequencies or levels.
-Chris
We are all here because we search for better sound quality. Many of the techi types are also passionate audio buffs. That means the collective "we" have more tools at our disposal.
When changes are made to circuits, or components or both, we also listen to the result. If it agrees with the measurements we know we are on the right path. This also validates the measurement methods in the process as well as help to train the ears for better sound.
Understand that in the field of audio engineering and repair, our jobs are all about better sound. So we have a day job, then we go home and do the same thing. Unlike others who do something different during the day and focus on audio in their free time. That really should be taken into account. We get paid to make audio better, and although some of us are completely misguided and pose a risk to people they come into contact with, the rest are very responsible and can apply changes that are shown to have a positive effect.
Anyway, about what can be measured, the RTX 6001 I'm using sees down to -140 dB with 1 dBu as the reference level. Imagine being able to sense signals that low! It would drive us crazy, and we can't hear anywhere even close to those numbers.
As for testing, we do test entire pieces of equipment, or simple circuits within, or even just the components. If there is a system problem, we can test the entire thing - which I have had to do from time to time.
Figuring out what really sounds the best without the aid of some technology is nigh impossible except for those things that are truly bad. For more subtle differences, it is far easier to weed out the good and less good performers.
One nugget of information you can use is this, for a capacitor to affect the sound quality, it must have a voltage differential across it caused by signals. That means a DC bias does not cause the capacitor to sound a certain way. But, if the capacitor is small enough so that there is an instantaneous voltage across it due to the signal, then it can cause trouble, or not depending on the quality of the part. Food for thought that should help our budding modifiers out there. This actually means that capacitors in the signal path that pass the signal through without loss will not impart any differences to the signal at all. Not unless you dig out some horrid part that actually has problems. Even then, they would develop some signal drop across them at some frequencies or levels.
-Chris
Hi dreamth,
Just think of moderators as normal members with a lot of extra work to do. so unless you see the "
" symbol, we are normal members, period.
Just so you know more who I am, I have over 40 years in the service industry, went to University and had a lot of training seminars. I ran a large service shop for 16 years that was well respected (sold it in 1998). My pet peeves are cleaning up after bad technicians, and hearing about customers being ripped off. That just paints the rest of us with a bad reputation. In truth, most really good honest techs I run into work very hard to undo previous damage and can never charge for all the time it takes.
Hi Renehc,
Your report does not fill me with confidence. He might be good, but he isn't behaving like it. Was his shop neat and was his test equipment in good repair, clean? Finally, did he have all the equipment he needs? You should take some pictures of his bench. Some people will stand beside the bench if you tell them you're taking a picture of your tech and his bench. This one needs to have his ego stroked it would seem.
-Chris
I'm posting as a normal member, and we have strict guidelines on how we behave and when we can moderate a thread. I'm participating here as a member and therefore cannot moderate in it. The exception is when someone does something very clearly against the rules and guidelines and something needs to be done post-haste!
Just think of moderators as normal members with a lot of extra work to do. so unless you see the "
" symbol, we are normal members, period. Just so you know more who I am, I have over 40 years in the service industry, went to University and had a lot of training seminars. I ran a large service shop for 16 years that was well respected (sold it in 1998). My pet peeves are cleaning up after bad technicians, and hearing about customers being ripped off. That just paints the rest of us with a bad reputation. In truth, most really good honest techs I run into work very hard to undo previous damage and can never charge for all the time it takes.
Hi Renehc,
Your report does not fill me with confidence. He might be good, but he isn't behaving like it. Was his shop neat and was his test equipment in good repair, clean? Finally, did he have all the equipment he needs? You should take some pictures of his bench. Some people will stand beside the bench if you tell them you're taking a picture of your tech and his bench. This one needs to have his ego stroked it would seem.
-Chris
Hi diyiggy,
If listening and measurements are both good, you're going in the right direction. If those two tests differ, you're going in the wrong direction. It's really simple, and I believe that if you have agreement between listening and measurements, then you are making a product that most people will like.
I think everyone wants to participate. Some do not have the equipment or experience, and that means they are learning. Too bad some who know better continue to push the idea that they can hear things that cannot be measured. Today that simply isn't true anymore. We can now measure well past what can be heard, but the interpretation may be flawed. That is a people thing, not an instrumentation thing.
We have some RF engineers, and folks who did signal manipulation at levels far beyond what we need for audio reproduction. They tend to avoid these discussions simply because people who do not have that exposure will fight tooth and nail to have "golden ears" or abilities beyond others. In truth, women and children are the best judges of what sounds natural and what doesn't. Being married and having three kids have hammered my ego down to a point where it just doesn't matter that much anymore!
Ever rebuilt a reel to reel and calibrate it without equipment and test tapes? I've seen it claimed, but in practice this is impossible. You absolutely need standards that serve as a "stick in the sand" just to know where you are. Humans make terrible test instruments, but can be good at comparisons. There is room for both, but going with listening or measurements only doesn't help your chances of success. Just a fact of life.
-Chris
I don't actively assess my own stuff. I have some decision whether the changes are good or bad, but I leave it to people who know I want honest answers to tell me what they think. I want to know from each without discussions between them. These things end up in other people's systems and I get varying reports depending on the system. But the reports can be predicted for the most part by looking at the test results.
If listening and measurements are both good, you're going in the right direction. If those two tests differ, you're going in the wrong direction. It's really simple, and I believe that if you have agreement between listening and measurements, then you are making a product that most people will like.
I think everyone wants to participate. Some do not have the equipment or experience, and that means they are learning. Too bad some who know better continue to push the idea that they can hear things that cannot be measured. Today that simply isn't true anymore. We can now measure well past what can be heard, but the interpretation may be flawed. That is a people thing, not an instrumentation thing.
We have some RF engineers, and folks who did signal manipulation at levels far beyond what we need for audio reproduction. They tend to avoid these discussions simply because people who do not have that exposure will fight tooth and nail to have "golden ears" or abilities beyond others. In truth, women and children are the best judges of what sounds natural and what doesn't. Being married and having three kids have hammered my ego down to a point where it just doesn't matter that much anymore!
Ever rebuilt a reel to reel and calibrate it without equipment and test tapes? I've seen it claimed, but in practice this is impossible. You absolutely need standards that serve as a "stick in the sand" just to know where you are. Humans make terrible test instruments, but can be good at comparisons. There is room for both, but going with listening or measurements only doesn't help your chances of success. Just a fact of life.
-Chris
Hi diyiggy,
The best thing to do is learn by reading posts and consider what has been said. There will be some self study involved in order to figure out what makes sense and what doesn't.
One thing to be aware of is that audio use doesn't matter to most manufacturers of components. This market isn't even close to being enough to support a manufacturing effort. Other industries are the driving force for the components we have. The need for signal conditioning and stability produces some amplifiers that are far better than what we listen to, certainly more reliable. For these, there is real money on the line, so something that doesn't operate well simply isn't tolerated. It can cost lives as well in industrial settings and medical equipment. Test and measurement is another high quality driver of the art. So, listen to those who are experienced with electronics and signal processing in industry. Audio entertainment is just an interest and a hobby for those who design or build nice reproduction systems. As for tube electronics, it it wasn't for musicians, we would only see transmitting and special use tubes today. Audio simply does not generate enough cash to be of much interest to component manufacturers.
Now, what does that say about good quality capacitors? Most good brands will do an equivalent job in the circuit where they are used. Capacitor types matter, not the brand name printed on the part.
-Chris
The best thing to do is learn by reading posts and consider what has been said. There will be some self study involved in order to figure out what makes sense and what doesn't.
One thing to be aware of is that audio use doesn't matter to most manufacturers of components. This market isn't even close to being enough to support a manufacturing effort. Other industries are the driving force for the components we have. The need for signal conditioning and stability produces some amplifiers that are far better than what we listen to, certainly more reliable. For these, there is real money on the line, so something that doesn't operate well simply isn't tolerated. It can cost lives as well in industrial settings and medical equipment. Test and measurement is another high quality driver of the art. So, listen to those who are experienced with electronics and signal processing in industry. Audio entertainment is just an interest and a hobby for those who design or build nice reproduction systems. As for tube electronics, it it wasn't for musicians, we would only see transmitting and special use tubes today. Audio simply does not generate enough cash to be of much interest to component manufacturers.
Now, what does that say about good quality capacitors? Most good brands will do an equivalent job in the circuit where they are used. Capacitor types matter, not the brand name printed on the part.
-Chris
Not really...They are also able to hear 2...4 times softer sounds in all audio range which is a lot!Especially girls!Boys start to loose their hearing at an early age due to testosteron. On the other hand, women are much more able to process audio information than men...
The simple reason that most women aren't into audio is because almost all our best audio equipment sounds like crap to them!They obviously prefer the live sessions to recordings.Of course they also like socializing...but it's clear from many studies that they hear much better than us in all audio range.
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A decade ago i started to see some similarities between all sorts of Elna capacitors.In the end i realized those letters written on the industrial capacitors must mean a lot.Ther was a particular series of Elna which had three different letters, each in a cut circle, S,U and T or R , i think ...Most of the capacitors would have only one letter on it.S is for signal i think, U were for high frequency, the third letter was for normal low freq ripple i think...They were the best for both high and low freq filtering, were used in place of some famous blue Rubycons (which again were used in everything(high freq, signal, low freq, decoupling, coupling...you name it),biggest in size and weight and very similar to the Elna for audio or the silmics they also perform similarly over time, i mean they use to dry quite soon compared to the low freq specd elnas...I honestly think that Elna for audio or the Silmics were just rebranded industrial capacitors.